Another help visualizing this is Flight Aware. Search on KLAS and expand the screen to a convenient scale. You can see which planes are where, keep refreshing to see movement, etc. Arrivals in blue, departures in green.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Another help visualizing this is Flight Aware. Search on KLAS and expand the screen to a convenient scale. You can see which planes are where, keep refreshing to see movement, etc. Arrivals in blue, departures in green.

Cool - thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
This is your problem guppy. You don’t know wtf you are talking about sometimes. Are you really going to stick with your statement that Airlines don’t fly visual patterns as described at large airports all over this country regularly? Because that is what you posted. You are wrong. I don’t need to convince you since you are clearly telling me that I haven’t flown that pattern into LAX, SFO, ATL, DTW, IAH, MCO, BWI, IAD, DEN, etc.

It happens ALL THE TIME. You can straw man all you want but the reality is you don’t know what you are talking about on this one. Doesn’t make you a bad guy but wrong is wrong. Being louder doesn’t make your false statement any truer.

Tell me again how airliners don’t take visuals from downwind (or wherever) into major airports on a regular basis. On Monday on my next trip I will dedicate every visual to you the all knowing.

Airlines and 121 operations do not typically fly traffic patterns and visual patterns. If you're flying for Podunk Air in your BE-1900, maybe you do find yourself reporting on the 45 to the left downwind behind Ma Kettle in her Cirrus or Luscombe, but no, 121 operations generally do not fly visual patterns, and the closest that operators come are either circling approaches, or being cleared for a visual. Vectors on a wide down wind or vectors to final do not count.

Being cleared for the visual with a turn to intercept a localizer doesn't count either, and in any case, if the airport is served by a glideslope or glidepath indicator, you have a legal obligation to remain or or above it during your approach. Coupled with the requirement to fly a stable approach, you don't have a legal option to simply bust in and land however your heart might desire. You still must arrive at final able to fly the same glidepath (and in today's world of constant descent or fight path angle) steady, stable approach to landing.

How many more decades of widebody international do I need before I reach your level of understanding, then? Just curious, as I don't have them left to do, you see.

Now certainly if you're in a Lear 25 you can enter the downwind at 18,000 and with boards at idle, make the runway. I've done it...though not with passengers aboard. You can do a lot of things outside of 121 operations. Overhead breaks, whatever, but these are not airline actions. Neither is flying a visual traffic pattern to a landing. Even when given a visual, if the runway is served with an approach, it's prudent to fly that visual backed with the approach, and set up for the approach, and the intelligent, proessional crew does. If you're flying for Rambling Regional and can't wait to get to the terminal to push your way to burger king with your backpack slung, then perhaps you don't...but flying a stable visual on glidepath and on glideslope is something the rest of us do, and have done for a long time.

I think what we have here is a misunderstanding due to semantics. Take a deep breath everybody. I think we are all saying basically the same thing in different ways. I too have flown as PIC in turbine equipment to every major airport in the U.S. as well. Several decades of it, CFII, MEI, ATP and 5 type ratings. I state my experience so you know I am not speaking out of my arse.

Let's say, for instance, you are approaching Dulles or Atlanta from the north and they are landing north. If traffic allows, you will get cleared for the visual approach and of course you will fly a left or right downwind, base and final. There is no other way to get there. If you are approaching from the east or west, you will most likely fly a base leg to final. This is where an uncontrolled field vs. a controlled field differ. At an uncontrolled field, you ain't 'posed to do base or final entries unless an instrument approach leads you there and conditions dictate.

Really 121 has nothing to do with it beyond your company ops specs. It is going to happen the same way for a United 757 as it will for a part 91 Gulfstream. Performance is basically the same on a radar screen. When it is not, ATC adjusts spacing.

Or one of my favorites, the ‘dogleg’ to final.

quote:

Originally posted by f2:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Another help visualizing this is Flight Aware. Search on KLAS and expand the screen to a convenient scale. You can see which planes are where, keep refreshing to see movement, etc. Arrivals in blue, departures in green.

Cool - thanks.

There is an app, Flightradar24, that may be even cooler.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JALLEN,

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
what are you twelve years old? get the fuck out of here if you're going to argue.

Um, dude, Pedro actually does know what he is speaking about. I have stayed out of this thread until now, but your remark is uncalled for.

quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:
At an uncontrolled field, you ain't 'posed to do base or final entries unless an instrument approach leads you there and conditions dictate.

Respectfully, I have to disagree. There is no regulatory requirement to fly a full pattern (downwind, base, final) at a non-towered field. No requirement at all, to make any turns on arrival, a straight-in or a base leg entry is perfectly acceptable, with two caveats:

1. You do not need to make any turns at all, but if you do, those turns should be in the direction of the standard pattern for that airport / runway. Usually left, but right hand pattern might be specified.
   
   
2. Thou shalt not use an abbreviated pattern (base entry, or straight-in) to cut off traffic that is flying a full (standard) pattern.

Use of the radio, announcing intentions, position, etc., but there is always a good chance of no-radio aircraft at non-towered fields, so nothing beats careful looking.

Book time. Right outta the AIM. Just so every one gets it correct.

5-4-20. VISUAL APPROACH

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight. This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial. Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR 91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.

I miss spoke in my last.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:
At an uncontrolled field, you ain't 'posed to do base or final entries unless an instrument approach leads you there and conditions dictate.

Respectfully, I have to disagree. There is no regulatory requirement to fly a full pattern (downwind, base, final) at a non-towered field. No requirement at all, to make any turns on arrival, a straight-in or a base leg entry is perfectly acceptable, with two caveats:

1. You do not need to make any turns at all, but if you do, those turns should be in the direction of the standard pattern for that airport / runway. Usually left, but right hand pattern might be specified.
   
   
2. Thou shalt not use an abbreviated pattern (base entry, or straight-in) to cut off traffic that is flying a full (standard) pattern.

Use of the radio, announcing intentions, position, etc., but there is always a good chance of no-radio aircraft at non-towered fields, so nothing beats careful looking.

Notice I said "ain't 'posed to", as in not recommended. Here is the thing. You will not find a regulation requiring a full pattern, but in the AIM, you will find recommended pattern entry and departure procedures. So, if something bad happens while you are doing a non-standard entry, you will be violated with the catch-all 91.13 "careless and reckless operation". But, you are technically correct.

I have a story about a fed going all Sgt. Carter/Gomer Pyle on me for this same scenario. Short version, we were landing in a midwest uncontrolled field. I hear an airline turbo-prop call in on frequency and approach issue holding instructions because we were closer. Being the nice guy I am , we canceled IFR so he could continue towards the field. I did not do a full pattern. I did a right base to final, just like I would have done on the visual and I honestly don't know if it was a L or R hand pattern airport. When we got on the ground, I got a face full of Sgt. Carter threatening me. I told him I was on an IFR flight plan. He said "you canceled and you better go read your FAR/AIM boy". I then realized that this over heated servant of the people was sitting jumpseat in that B-1900, probably doing a line check. I just kept repeating "yes sir" until he walked away.

My point is, there is nothing regulatory against it, but there is published guidance on what is recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

Thou shalt not use an abbreviated pattern (base entry, or straight-in) to cut off traffic that is flying a full (standard) pattern.[/list]Use of the radio, announcing intentions, position, etc., but there is always a good chance of no-radio aircraft at non-towered fields, so nothing beats careful looking.

Careful looking even beats radio aircraft calling out ”turning final runway 9” when actually turning final for runway 27. This woman was doing touch and goes like she always did, but for some mysterious reason, everyone else was calling it runway 9 that day. Yikes!

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Careful looking even beats radio aircraft calling out ”turning final runway 9” when actually turning final for runway 27. This woman was doing touch and goes like she always did, but for some mysterious reason, everyone else was calling it runway 9 that day. Yikes!

Yeah, that has happened to me. Right runway, wrong end.

Even worse than 9 / 27, are runways like 02 / 20, or 13 / 31. Lord help you if you are lysdexic.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy: How many more decades of widebody international do I need before I reach your level of understanding, then? Just curious, as I don't have them left to do, you see.

Just curious how much 121 operations time you have in Montana and Wyoming? We did a LOT of visual / pattern work in the venerable 727 and 737. (Lots of Special Green Page procedures for those areas as well.)

quote:

Originally posted by Tailhook 84:
[
Just curious how much 121 operations time you have in Montana and Wyoming? We did a LOT of visual / pattern work in the venerable 727 and 737. (Lots of Special Green Page procedures for those areas as well.)

Quite a bit and a lot more low level firefighting in those locations. And I lived there. I've even circled at Aspen when it was still allowed (albeit in a LR35, not 121). A lot of mountain flying, and I don't recall ever doing a 121, or even 91K VFR traffic pattern. Visual approach, yes. VFR airport traffic patterns, no. Not just domestic US, but abroad, in places with a lot more mountains and a lot more rural, and still the procedures get flown. In fact, it's even more important in such locations, and slicing two minutes off a procedure is no valid reason to compromise anything, including a visual approach flown backed up with an instrument procedure, and a stabilized approach.

Many 121 operators won't even circle today.

Wow. I don’t need to defend myself but the level of quackery is high. I don’t jump into crop dusting or fire fighting threads spouting bullshit because I don’t do that kind of flying. Funny thing is, this thread concerns exactly the kind of flying I do for a living. Flew in the Navy went straight to the Majors. Been at my airline for nearing 20 years.

When cut loose on a visual I fly the exact same pattern as depicted on that chart. Of course it’s wider than a general aviation aircraft because my plane is a lot heavier, faster, and requires a bigger turn radius. Smaller slower airplanes fly tighter downwinds. Bigger faster fly wider downwinds.

You guys can (guppy) can keep telling me how things work in the big bad world of Airlines but that doesn’t make him any less wrong every time he does.

To recap, once cleared for the visual the airline pilot flies whatever pattern that is safe and expeditious to the numbers. In most cases that means a downwind entry as pictured, a base entry, or a straight in. If you enter the downwind you absolutely fly it identically to a small GA aircraft with the allowance that it is wider because your plane can’t turn as tight as a small plane.

Argue all day about this but that is the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I don’t jump into crop dusting or fire fighting threads spouting bullshit because I don’t do that kind of flying.

And you shouldn't, because as you succinctly put it, you'd be out of your depth.

I wouldn't be, however.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Funny thing is, this thread concerns exactly the kind of flying I do for a living.

Me too. Again, captain on widebody equipment flying internationally...and yet you keep telling me I'm "out of my depth." I've been doing this a lot longer than you, too..but you seem to feel that I need more experience. What color is the kettle again, pot?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
If you enter the downwind you absolutely fly it identically to a small GA aircraft with the allowance that it is wider because your plane can’t turn as tight as a small plane.

No, not really. Perhaps out of the navy you never got any experience in small GA aircraft, so you really don't know the difference? Sure sounds that way. At any rate, enjoy your second career. At 20 years in, you should know what you're talking about. Your commends just don't sound much like it.

For the original poster, I have all the approach procedures for LAS here on an ipad, but I have no idea how to post them here so you can see them. It would make a little more sense if you could see the procedure as its charted, in relation to the runways, airport, and surrounding area. Bottom line is that aircraft are brought in from different directions on fairly standard arrival routing, then sent to the appropriate runway via "radar vectors" that tell the pilot what direction to fly. If cleared for a visual, the pilot will join a portion of the instrument approach while maintaining his own separation with the aircraft ahead. Aircraft are sequenced, or arranged, according to a number of criteria, as we have discussed. Aircraft coming from different directions merge at some point when going to the same runway, and you may be seeing some of that with what looks like aircraft "cutting in front of" other aircraft.

Light airplane VFR traffic patterns (per the original diagram) are not typical in airline operations, though portions of the pattern relate (opposite direction of land is called "downwind," and right angles to the final approach are the "base," and so forth).

Always amused by the term "air traffic controllers". Not really...they are "advisors". The Captain is the final authority...always.

Quite so.

quote:

Originally posted by SilverWolf:
Always amused by the term "air traffic controllers". Not really...they are "advisors". The Captain is the final authority...always.

Yeah, but if you do not comply with ATC instructions, you will have some 'splaining to do. Ask me how I know.

Bad news comes by registered mail.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by SilverWolf:
Always amused by the term "air traffic controllers". Not really...they are "advisors". The Captain is the final authority...always.

Yeah, but if you do not comply with ATC instructions, you will have some 'splaining to do. Ask me how I know.

Bad news comes by registered mail.

“Unable.”