quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:
f2, crumble up that paper showing the pattern. It really doesn't apply to KLAS. Go here and listen to ATC. You should get a better idea of the way it works by listening to aircraft/ATC.

https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=klas

Cool link.

I just used the diagram to frame my questions.

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
Cool link.

I just used the diagram to frame my questions.

I understand and didn't mean to sound crass. My apologies.

quote:

Originally posted by Top Gun Supply:

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
Cool link.

I just used the diagram to frame my questions.

I understand and didn't mean to sound crass. My apologies.

No worries!

Airline pilot jumping in here. We absolutely fly a visual pattern to large airports like SFO, ATL, etc. all the time. To say airlines don’t is completely not true. As was stated earlier Airlines won’t fly an upwind entry to a crosswind, downwind, to base. But if traffic allows, which it does quite a lot, it is not uncommon to be “cleared for the visual” from that downwind position on the chart. You can be anywhere on that downwind line, including not yet abeam the airport when this clearance is given. At this point the pilot and the pilot alone will turn base at whatever position is safe for him to land from. Smaller planes will certainly turn inside or “closer” to the airport than a heavy.

This is perfectly normal completely safe and unless prohibited by something like noise abatement procedures the proper way to do it. Shorter approaches mean more on time arrivals and you burn less gas, $$$$$.

Once again perfectly safe and it happens all the time even at big airports. Arrival rates aren’t always at peak and the controllers like visuals because it lessens their workload.

Required by regulation to remain at or above the glidepath/glideslope in all cases, and fly a stabilized approach. No making short cuts to violate that. It's not normal to take a visual to most large airports, except for specific visual approaches such as previously identified at SFO. Further, the visual is still an IFR procedure, usually done where needed to open airspace, following report of field in sight.

An airport traffic pattern as previously depicted, is common to smaller, slower traffic, but not to 121 operations.

A visual approach is a VFR procedure. No published miss, see and avoid. Maintain visual separation from other traffic and the ground. Allows aircraft to deviate from the published IFR procedures increasing capacity and reducing the required separation. The number of arrivals is in direct proportion to the number of runways available and the weather conditions. Some noise abatement procedures can factor into this whole mess.

You are out of your depth on this one guppy . Speaking plainly you don’t know what you are talking about. I have flown visual approaches as described at almost every major American airport. You can blather on all day about staying above glide path and my response will be, well no shit. No one is trying to crash. Those published visual approaches of which you speak are the norm if traffic flow dictates. Airports, even Atlanta, the busiest airport in the states isn’t always at capacity and we get cleared for the visual on a regular basis.

If they have spacing and we have the field in sight they cut us loose of the approach procedure. In that case I’m not turning a 10 mile final to satisfy your understanding of 121 rules.

You are wrong on this. Not that you will accept that.

Not getting into this discussion because I know nothing about it but I will say this is another example of the vast store of knowledge you find on this board. Which is one of the many reasons I love being a part of it. I learn something new almost every time I check in.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
The picture is a basic VFR (visual flight rules) traffic pattern. Aircraft operating under IFR don't fly traffic patterns. Airline aircraft fly instrument approaches; published procedures using ground and airborne navigation systems to guide them to a runway. When in the terminal area, typically within about 25 miles of the runway, the aircraft are either arriving on a published STAR, or on a routing to the approach, or being directed (vectored) by air traffic control.

Navigation systems today are very precise; it appears that aircraft on a given arrival all fly the same track and are often lined up perfectly because of the navigational precision. When you see them coming from different directions, they're on different arrivals, coming from different places. Ultimately, aircraft for one runway are usually sent to one of several marshalling points.

Runway 26R has a final approach fix (FAF) of CONDY at 7.6 nautical miles, and an altitude of 3,800. Traffic will join the final outside the FAF with adequate time to complete their checklist and configuration prior to starting down the electronic glideslope. The next fix outside CONDY is HAWKO at 12.7 miles and 5,400'.

runway 26L has a FAF at RELIN, 7.2 nm and 3,800'. Next fix outside RELIN is SHAND, at 10.8 nm and 4,900'.

The opposite direction runways, 8L and 8R, do not have approaches.

One of the busiest arrivals, coming from the southwest, drops traffic at CLARR intersection at 250 knots and 13,000. From there traffic is vectored to the landing runway.

Traffic arriving from the northwest on the SUNST 4 arrival crosses Boulder City VOR and goes east toward Boulder Dam before turning a descending base and final, then drops off at PRINO, the start of the ILS approach to runway 26L. The pattern is arranged with a squared off base downwind and base, after a fashion, and intercepts the final approach course at 8,000 just southwest of the Boulder Narrows by Lake Mead.

The KEPEC 6 has a similar path to final.

Thanks for all of your posts.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Airline pilot jumping in here. We absolutely fly a visual pattern to large airports like SFO, ATL, etc. all the time. To say airlines don’t is completely not true. As was stated earlier Airlines won’t fly an upwind entry to a crosswind, downwind, to base. But if traffic allows, which it does quite a lot, it is not uncommon to be “cleared for the visual” from that downwind position on the chart. You can be anywhere on that downwind line, including not yet abeam the airport when this clearance is given. At this point the pilot and the pilot alone will turn base at whatever position is safe for him to land from. Smaller planes will certainly turn inside or “closer” to the airport than a heavy.

This is perfectly normal completely safe and unless prohibited by something like noise abatement procedures the proper way to do it. Shorter approaches mean more on time arrivals and you burn less gas, $$$$$.

Once again perfectly safe and it happens all the time even at big airports. Arrival rates aren’t always at peak and the controllers like visuals because it lessens their workload.

Thanks. Do you think a 737, on the downwind leg, would get cleared for a visual to turn in front of a heavy coming straight in?

The other day I saw a (737 I think) who had already made the base leg turn and was straight in to land make another 90 degree turn (for a 360) - so I'm thinking he did not have the separation and they waved him off, pulled him out of the landing pattern.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: f2,

quote:

Originally posted by SIG 229R:
Not getting into this discussion because I know nothing about it but I will say this is another example of the vast store of knowledge you find on this board. Which is one of the many reasons I love being a part of it. I learn something new almost every time I check in.

And another example of chongo’s signature line.

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
Do you think a 737, on the downwind leg, would get cleared for a visual to turn in front of a heavy coming straight in?

Totally depends on the spacing.

ATC needs to be cognizant of traffic separation when issuing a clearance. If the straight-in heavy is far enough out that separation will not be compromised, the 737 can be cleared to land ahead of it. If the straight-in heavy is close the 737 driver can be told to extend his (her?) downwind to land behind the heavy.

Noise abatement is a high level concern. When two aircraft collide it can get very loud.

One of the main things the ATC controller doles out is a speed to fly on final, up to a certain point when one slows to ‘target speed’. This speed is used to keep the required spacing.

While most airline types can fly similar speeds(170-190) to 5 miles or so, there can easily be a turboprop mixed in that may have a much slower target speed the last few miles.

There are many variables that effect most everything, weather, winds, runway layout, and amount of traffic at any given time. Even the busiest of airports have slow times. No need to get mixed up with ‘this or that isn’t the way it’s done’. It changes for conditions, airports.

Go to Europe and they are big on ‘constant descent angle’CDL) approaches. That is where the goal is to not have a level segment below 7-8000’. This is done mostly for noise reduction. While in Hyde Park in London you watch jets coming to Heathrow, they are hardly heard at descent power. Since it is Europe, they do monitor this and report if not done right. When you check in the controller gives you miles to touchdown, which includes the curved portion of the expected final length.

Thanks to everyone who posted so far. Lots to absorb - which is good.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
You are out of your depth on this one guppy . Speaking plainly you don’t know what you are talking about.

Those past few decades in the cockpit just didn't take, I guess. One day I hope to learn as much as you. If I can just get out of this damn widebody cockpit on the international routes, maybe I'll have time to learn. Until then, thankfully you're here. How many more decades, do you suppose, before I'm at your depth?

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
Do you think a 737, on the downwind leg, would get cleared for a visual to turn in front of a heavy coming straight in?

The other day I saw a (737 I think) who had already made the base leg turn and was straight in to land make another 90 degree turn (for a 360) - so I'm thinking he did not have the separation and they waved him off, pulled him out of the landing pattern.

Air traffic control generally takes traffic on a first-come, first-serve basis, but the national airspace system is complex, and there are a lot of variables. At a given airport, aircraft type and speeds, wake turbulence category, runway requirements, type of operation, priority (emergency, etc), winds, and a number of other factors determine how traffic is sequenced. When a flight departs Los Angeles, headed for JFK in New York, the aircraft is given a clearance in the national airspace system which takes it from beginning to end. There are thousands of these flights, all dovetailed and adjusted to fit, at any given time. Changes in one location ripple across the country.

Arriving aircraft that are "in the system," or participating in the national airspace system as instrument aircraft (airliners, for example) are known, observed, participating aircraft from the time they leave their destination until arrival. Other aircraft pop up, flying visually under a slightly different set of rules (visual flight rules, or VFR). This is typical of many light aircraft. Regardless of the source, each arriving aircraft must be carefully sequenced to have adequate spacing from other aircraft, allow sufficient time for wake turbulence from preceding aircraft to dissipate, to allow enough time on the runway to land and taxi clear before the next aircraft arrives, and to handle the speed differences between each aircraft on the arrival. Add to the mix emergencies, such as a no-slat, no-flap arrival that might be flying at a much faster speed than other aircraft, and spacing becomes even more critical and complex. Can a 737 be sequenced ahead of a 747? Sure, but it's not that simple.

A light turboprop might be ahead of the 747, and it may be directed to maintain a given speed until a certain distance from the runway, to allow for spacing. Some aircraft are given priority; emergencies, or ambulance aircraft, for example. Winds shift, changing runways, and arrivals to the terminal area. Runways experience closures, such as a mishap on the runway, necessitating altering the plans for numerous other aircraft, and of course weather in the terminal area can cause routing changes, delays, holding (flying circles over a fix).

Meanwhile, in the Las Vegas terminal area, multiple other procedures are in place, such as high speed arrivals and departures at Nellis AFB, arrivals and departures at North Las Vegas and Boulder City, Dropping jumpers in the arrival area near Jean, and operations at Henderson.

It's easiest if you just remember that published procedures are what the arriving aircraft follow until given vectors (directions) to the final approach path. If able, the aircraft may be given a "visual," which is an instrument clearance to an aircraft to fly visually to a runway. The airrline aircraft is still required to fly the same glidepath and electronic glideslope to the runway as everyone else, whether cleared for an instrument approach, or a visual.

When you sit on your porch and watch all the aircraft lined up, they're not all freelancing, taking shortcuts to save time and fuel. They're following the arrival procedures which allow aircraft to be sequenced so efficiently at LAS.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
When you sit on your porch and watch all the aircraft lined up, they're not all freelancing, taking shortcuts to save time and fuel. They're following the arrival procedures which allow aircraft to be sequenced so efficiently at LAS.

I realize that when it's busy, they are probably following ATC direction to turn early, but when it's just before sunrise, and no other planes around, and they cut in at the 5, maybe 7 miles from the usual turn that everyone else makes, I'm trying to figure if they (say a 737) made the cut early on their own, or if they were directed, or if they were directed to visual rules?

quote:

Originally posted by f2:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
When you sit on your porch and watch all the aircraft lined up, they're not all freelancing, taking shortcuts to save time and fuel. They're following the arrival procedures which allow aircraft to be sequenced so efficiently at LAS.

I realize that when it's busy, they are probably following ATC direction to turn early, but when it's just before sunrise, and no other planes around, and they cut in at the 5, maybe 7 miles from the usual turn that everyone else makes, I'm trying to figure if they (say a 737) made the cut early on their own, or if they were directed, or if they were directed to visual rules?

You can listen to ATC. https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=las.

Pick the frequency you are interested. Probably start with tower, then figure out which approach frequency is of interest, go from there.

This is your problem guppy. You don’t know wtf you are talking about sometimes. Are you really going to stick with your statement that Airlines don’t fly visual patterns as described at large airports all over this country regularly? Because that is what you posted. You are wrong. I don’t need to convince you since you are clearly telling me that I haven’t flown that pattern into LAX, SFO, ATL, DTW, IAH, MCO, BWI, IAD, DEN, etc.

It happens ALL THE TIME. You can straw man all you want but the reality is you don’t know what you are talking about on this one. Doesn’t make you a bad guy but wrong is wrong. Being louder doesn’t make your false statement any truer.

Tell me again how airliners don’t take visuals from downwind (or wherever) into major airports on a regular basis. On Monday on my next trip I will dedicate every visual to you the all knowing.

To answer the other question, they never “just turn” inbound. You are either directed to make the turn or you are cleared visually in which case ATC has determined the spacing is good and the responsibility to navigate safely to the field is in the pilots hands. Once cleared in that manner the pilot determines when he feels he can make a safe approach and turns accordingly. I have flown with people who fly a very wide or deep pattern and those who turn at what they consider a safe but clearly shorter approach.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
This is your problem guppy. You don’t know wtf you are talking about sometimes. Are you really going to stick with your statement that Airlines don’t fly visual patterns as described at large airports all over this country regularly? Because that is what you posted. You are wrong. I don’t need to convince you since you are clearly telling me that I haven’t flown that pattern into LAX, SFO, ATL, DTW, IAH, MCO, BWI, IAD, DEN, etc.

It happens ALL THE TIME. You can straw man all you want but the reality is you don’t know what you are talking about on this one. Doesn’t make you a bad guy but wrong is wrong. Being louder doesn’t make your false statement any truer.

Tell me again how airliners don’t take visuals from downwind (or wherever) into major airports on a regular basis. On Monday on my next trip I will dedicate every visual to you the all knowing.

what are you twelve years old? get the fuck out of here if you're going to argue.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by f2:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
When you sit on your porch and watch all the aircraft lined up, they're not all freelancing, taking shortcuts to save time and fuel. They're following the arrival procedures which allow aircraft to be sequenced so efficiently at LAS.

I realize that when it's busy, they are probably following ATC direction to turn early, but when it's just before sunrise, and no other planes around, and they cut in at the 5, maybe 7 miles from the usual turn that everyone else makes, I'm trying to figure if they (say a 737) made the cut early on their own, or if they were directed, or if they were directed to visual rules?

You can listen to ATC. https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=las.
Pick the frequency you are interested. Probably start with tower, then figure out which approach frequency is of interest, go from there.

Top Gun Supply posted it earlier and I'm listening to it now.

Whatever f2. If someone posts complete nonsense about something I know quite well I will refute it. The OP wanted factual knowledge, guppy is passing on complete non factual info.

You want the truth or you want some wiki version of the truth? Up to you.

If you don’t like my tone with his nonsense oh well. If a mod takes offense I will quietly go to my corner.