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Army is evaluating a new innovative multibarrel “ribbon” gun Login/Join 
Member
Picture of maladat
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Although I don’t see the advantage of firing five bullets at the same time and turn the gun with a 30-round block of ammunition into a six-shooter, I am curious about the caseless ammunition.

People have been trying to perfect caseless ammunition for decades without any significant success. Questions I would have are how durable is the stuff; what happens if a block is dropped into the sand or mud and then loaded into the weapon; what happens after only a few rounds are fired and the gun is unloaded, can the partially-expended block continue to be used after a reload? There’s not much information about how the weapon functions with those ammo blocks, but I can imagine many possible issues.

But the most critical question of all: Where’s the bayonet lug‽
They expect our warfighters to go into battle without being able to take knives to their gunfights? Wink


Calling this "caseless" ammunition seems like a misnomer.

It doesn't have a traditional brass case, no, but the "ammo block" is essentially a strong, funny-shaped case that holds five separate powder charges and projectiles.

The "caseless" ammunition that people keep experimenting with and proclaiming to be the next big thing, and that then disappear without ever amounting to anything, are ONLY propellant and projectile, no container.

This thing looks kind of like if you built a blackpowder revolver where you could just carry a bunch of cylinders and swap them out. There aren't any cases involved, but you still aren't touching powder and bullets when you reload it.


I see accuracy being a big potential hurdle, between having to manage the projectile's jump between the ammo block and an actual barrel and having FIVE different barrels that have to be perfectly aligned.
 
Posts: 6319 | Location: CA | Registered: January 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
Calling this "caseless" ammunition seems like a misnomer.

It doesn't have a traditional brass case, no, but the "ammo block" is essentially a strong, funny-shaped case that holds five separate powder charges and projectiles.


I may be misinterpreting all that. I don’t see anything being ejected when the rifle is fired, so I assumed that the entire block was consumed when fired—with the obvious exceptions of the bullet and, presumably, the primer. But then it’s obvious that something must prevent ignition of the entire block if discharging only one round is selected/desired, so there must be something that separates them.

Thanks for that observation.




6.4/93.6

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato
 
Posts: 47365 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
Calling this "caseless" ammunition seems like a misnomer.

It doesn't have a traditional brass case, no, but the "ammo block" is essentially a strong, funny-shaped case that holds five separate powder charges and projectiles.



Sure, it can put out 5 round at a time, but then you have to eject the blocks, which look to be about the size of a 20 round magazine (while only holding 5 rounds).

I'm not against innovation, but I don't see this particular iteration of this idea being better than what we already have.
 
Posts: 17733 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of maladat
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quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
Calling this "caseless" ammunition seems like a misnomer.

It doesn't have a traditional brass case, no, but the "ammo block" is essentially a strong, funny-shaped case that holds five separate powder charges and projectiles.



Sure, it can put out 5 round at a time, but then you have to eject the blocks, which look to be about the size of a 20 round magazine (while only holding 5 rounds).

I'm not against innovation, but I don't see this particular iteration of this idea being better than what we already have.


I wasn't trying to endorse the concept. I agree with you, it's interesting but there are a lot of potential problems.
 
Posts: 6319 | Location: CA | Registered: January 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
I wasn't trying to endorse the concept. I agree with you, it's interesting but there are a lot of potential problems.


I know that you weren't. I was just pointing out additional concerns.

I don't believe the next step in firearms evolution is case-less ammunition in the traditional ignition/powder sense. I think we're at the point where beam weaponry or rail gun technology will be the next step (i.e. that we will leap over case-less ignition propelled projectiles right to magnetic propulsion, or to using no projectiles at all).
 
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"It's time for a modern weapon"... based on an idea that was abandoned in the early 1800's. Big Grin


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Posts: 21052 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
sick puppy
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Originally posted by DSgrouse:
That article was written by a 2 year old


Its Vice. No surprise there.

To increase lethality, just shoot more bullets per trigger pull? This is pretty far fetched and dumb to me



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Posts: 7546 | Location: Alpine, Ut | Registered: February 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of maladat
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quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
I wasn't trying to endorse the concept. I agree with you, it's interesting but there are a lot of potential problems.


I know that you weren't. I was just pointing out additional concerns.

I don't believe the next step in firearms evolution is case-less ammunition in the traditional ignition/powder sense. I think we're at the point where beam weaponry or rail gun technology will be the next step (i.e. that we will leap over case-less ignition propelled projectiles right to magnetic propulsion, or to using no projectiles at all).


The problem with electricity-based weapons like that is one of energy density.

In the context of weapons, energy is the capacity to damage a target, and a weapon is a tool for delivering energy to a target. The weapon needs to deliver enough energy to cause incapacitating injury or death, and a soldier needs to be able to carry enough energy to do that as many times as possible.

Gunpowder has a pretty high energy density. Until pretty recently, the highest energy density electricity storage devices had something like 1/50th the energy density of gunpowder - meaning for an individual soldier to carry the same quantity of wounding capacity, he'd need 50 times the mass of batteries as compared to gunpowder.

The very highest-performance current generation batteries have cut the gap down to something like 20-30% the energy density of gunpowder.

Purely from an energy standpoint, we've gotten to the point now where it might be practical to build electrically powered small arms rather than chemical ones, at the cost of getting substantially fewer "shots" for the same amount of "ammunition."

Presumably, battery technology will continue to improve, and at some point, electrical power will be competitive with chemical power for small arms use.

There's also the potential to improve chemical-propellant weapons, though - there are chemical propellants that have a much higher energy density than gunpowder.
 
Posts: 6319 | Location: CA | Registered: January 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
Picture of gearhounds
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
I wasn't trying to endorse the concept. I agree with you, it's interesting but there are a lot of potential problems.


I know that you weren't. I was just pointing out additional concerns.

I don't believe the next step in firearms evolution is case-less ammunition in the traditional ignition/powder sense. I think we're at the point where beam weaponry or rail gun technology will be the next step (i.e. that we will leap over case-less ignition propelled projectiles right to magnetic propulsion, or to using no projectiles at all).


I’ve actually wondered why nobody has pursued a rail gun device; I suppose the biggest hurdle would be a man portable power source that could render hundreds of firings possible before a “power pack” needed to be replaced.

Imagine some kind of force fed reservoir of hundreds of stainless ball shaped projectiles and a system that could accelerate them to hyper velocity. Hell, imagine a SAW laying down a withering hail of them? Rail gun tech is evolving rapidly, so it’s probably just a matter of time.




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Posts: 15501 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Corgis Rock
Picture of Icabod
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Caseless ammunition has been tried since WWII. It has problems:
Heat sink. Fire conventional ammunition and the case picks up some of the heat and ejection takes it away. Caseless doesn’t do this and a “cook off” is very possible.
Debris from incomplete ignition. Black powder muskets have a build up of unturned powder and debris. The barrels have to be cleaned. There’s no way you’re going to get 100% burn off.
Last is reloading. It’s not going to happen in the field. Remember the clueless politiction that wanted to ban magazines? After the rounds were fired the magazines were useless? Same problem.



“ The work of destruction is quick, easy and exhilarating; the work of creation is slow, laborious and dull.
 
Posts: 6060 | Location: Outside Seattle | Registered: November 29, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I believe in this case the battery is for activating the primer only, not power something like an electric rail gun (which the US Navy already has).

Electric firing of primers has been around for decades. It was on Navy ships in the 1970’s and it wasn’t new then.

As far as caseless ammunition, I personally spoke with an engineer today and the company he works for, on the east coast, is doing research right now on caseless ammunition for the military. I cannot imagine they are the only company doing this kind of study.

It is plausible that any primer/ignition system may be consumed with each firing of the weapon, leaving an empty chamber once the bullet leaves. How to safely store, transport and waterproof such ammo would also be part of the research.
 
Posts: 2130 | Location: south central Pennsylvania | Registered: November 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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I have no idea of the use of it, but I always figured a "caseless" ammo could be made by making the old paper shell style shotgun shells, from nitrocellulose.
 
Posts: 5706 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Miami Beach, FL | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Making caseless ammunition is easy. I have two Ruger revolvers that use ammunition with no cases: All I must do is pour blackpowder into the chamber, seat a bullet on top, and place a cap on the nipple.

Caseless ammunition, however, has several drawbacks. It must be durable enough to withstand the rigors of handling, transport, and storage under military combat conditions and the mechanical stresses of being cycled through automatic weapons. That also includes being durable enough to deal with the impact of the firing pin on the primer (assuming it’s not the electronic ignition that has its own hazards and drawbacks). It must also be safe. A case or pallet of the stuff can’t start burning and turn into an uncontrollable conflagration or explode if it’s exposed to fire, a spark, or flying ember from a warming fire—or someone’s cigarette.

Another issue is accuracy. When conventional rifle ammunition is chambered, the bullet is positioned a small fraction of an inch from the rifling in the barrel, and that’s usually necessary for optimum accuracy. With caseless ammunition it may be difficult to reduce the distance the bullet must jump to engage the rifling. Another accuracy factor is the position of the bullet before the cartridge is fired. Maximum precision requires that the bullet be aligned with the bore as exactly as possible and that would be much more difficult to ensure if the bullet was molded in place within the propellant.




6.4/93.6

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato
 
Posts: 47365 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SIGguy229
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Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I really don't see the advantage of firing 5 rounds at once. Sure, you can fire 1 at a time, but any rifle can do that. How is this an improvement on current weapon systems?

I don't see a bright future for this gun.

Suppressive fire? Troops in the open?
 
Posts: 1721 | Location: South.....Carolina | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Almost as Fast as a Speeding Bullet
Picture of Otto Pilot
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quote:
Originally posted by SIGguy229:
quote:
Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
I really don't see the advantage of firing 5 rounds at once. Sure, you can fire 1 at a time, but any rifle can do that. How is this an improvement on current weapon systems?

I don't see a bright future for this gun.

Suppressive fire? Troops in the open?
I think that I read somewhere that one potential advantage is against future enemies wearing plate armor inserts. They can stop rifle rounds, but will fail with multiple hits. I can't find that particular article, but I'm certain, that was mentioned as a particular scenario.


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Posts: 11502 | Location: Denver and/or The World | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Experienced Slacker
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If you thought you could get a shotgun to be as accurate at three hundred meters as it is at ten, along with rifle velocities, would you try it?

Odds are the goal is out of reach, but the attempt is bound to produce some progress.
 
Posts: 7486 | Registered: May 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This thing is silly. It reeks of a design solution to a problem imagined by someone without any military experience. In one video that I watched, the promotional speech mentions the fact that it feeds from essentially the equivalent of en block clips with a fixed magazine and the lack of a need to carry additional magazines as a positive feature. This is not a positive feature and has not been used on a military rifle since World War II. It is an interesting proof of concept, but sorely lacking as a military firearm in my opinion.


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Posts: 2314 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Maybe it's got applications for something like Puff the Magic Dragon.
 
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Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Maybe it's got applications for something like Puff the Magic Dragon.

And pirate ships would lower their flags when Puff roared out his name.




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Posts: 17459 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 2BobTanner
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Originally posted by cas:
"It's time for a modern weapon"... based on an idea that was abandoned in the early 1800's. Big Grin




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