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Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted
This is more for curiosity than a plan, so no one has to tell me how hard it is to make money as a gunsmith, but is there a difference in Federal firearms licensing as a gunsmith as compared to a dealer who buys and sells guns? Are the requirements for a place of business the same? May a gunsmith with an FFL buy guns the same way as a regular dealer?




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 37875 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of MG34_Dan
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Biggest difference I am aware of is that a gunsmithing operation must have an EPA approved disposal service on contract. Proof of this must be presented to your BATF examiner prior to an FFL being granted.


“Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won.”
– Barack Hussein Obama, January 23, 2009
 
Posts: 1783 | Location: Austin Texas USA | Registered: February 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sig2340
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The 01 Federal Firearms License for a dealer is the same as for a gunsmith, and is subject to all the same restriction, save one. A gunsmith is not required to have hours when the business is open to walk-in traffic.

I'm happy to go over the details by phone. Shoot me your phone number and I'll call you.



Nice is overrated

And people wonder why I carry a SIG P320

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Posts: 26912 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Both are a Type 01 FFL (assuming by using the term 'gunsmithing' you mean firearms repair only - not manufacture, which is another Type of FFL).

Place of business requirements seems to vary more due to state zoning requirements. I've seen 01 FFLs run out of a home with no special construction requirements then full up stores with special security.
 
Posts: 37577 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
is there a difference in Federal firearms licensing as a gunsmith as compared to a dealer who buys and sells guns?


It depends. Are you just going to be doing minor repairs, or are you going to be making and selling your own guns?

Dealing in guns and making minor repairs to customers' guns would both use a Type 01 FFL.

But manufacturing requires a different license, a Type 07 FFL. (IIRC, the ATF has held that even buying receivers/frames for your shop and building them into complete firearms to sell in your shop is considered "manufacturing".)

quote:
Are the requirements for a place of business the same?


That will likely depend (at least in part) on your local business licensing rules and zoning regulations.

quote:
May a gunsmith with an FFL buy guns the same way as a regular dealer?


Yes. A simple gunsmith has the same FFL as a regular dealer (01). And someone with a manufacturing FFL (07) can also do everything a regular dealer (01) can do.
 
Posts: 20372 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
Picture of Sig2340
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quote:
Originally posted by MG34_Dan:
Biggest difference I am aware of is that a gunsmithing operation must have an EPA approved disposal service on contract. Proof of this must be presented to your BATF examiner prior to an FFL being granted.


Nope.

A very small scale operation that works to use non-hazardous waste and to recycle as much of that waste as possible would fall under the federal regulations as a conditionally-exempt small quantity generator. Under the CESQG rules, you are not required to dispose of waste at a hazardous waste treatment, storage, or disposal facility. Most states have a similar regulation.

You will, however, have to provide information on how you plan to mange your wastes in two addendum so to the original application for the FFL.



Nice is overrated

And people wonder why I carry a SIG P320

Death to Terrorists
 
Posts: 26912 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Thanks for the quick replies. You’ve provided the information I’ve been curious about. I was thinking about a business that wasn’t involved in any form of manufacturing, just repairs and servicing.

Although long ago I considered pursuing an FFL to do gunsmithing work, I came to the conclusion that it would make no sense for me and I no longer have any intention of doing so. (The waste thing was something I wasn’t even aware of, much less had considered.)




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 37875 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
If you see me running
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Picture of mrvmax
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Thanks for the quick replies. You’ve provided the information I’ve been curious about. I was thinking about a business that wasn’t involved in any form of manufacturing, just repairs and servicing.

Although long ago I considered pursuing an FFL to do gunsmithing work, I came to the conclusion that it would make no sense for me and I no longer have any intention of doing so. (The waste thing was something I wasn’t even aware of, much less had considered.)

There’s too much liability in gunsmithing for me to ever want to do it. If I were a youngster I could complete one of the NRA approved schools and work with one of the big guys. After 10-20 years of full time experience it would make sense to branch out and try doing it.
 
Posts: 2254 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SR
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A friend has been doing gunsmith work for 20+ years and has a complete gunsmithing shop. The ATF paid him a visit and put pressure on him to give up his FFL because he received very few firearms (and in some years no firearms). There is some specific rule they showed him.

If you're not going to receive firearms for resale, perhaps you don't need an FFL. People send this guy receivers and stocks and he mills custom barrels for long range shooting. ATF still said that no FFL required (since the receivers that customers send have serial numbers).

Send me a PM if you need more info and I'll contact my friend.




Speak softly and carry a big stick loaded Sig
 
Posts: 4126 | Location: Raleigh, North Carolina | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
Picture of Sig2340
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quote:
Originally posted by SR:
A friend has been doing gunsmith work for 20+ years and has a complete gunsmithing shop. The ATF paid him a visit and put pressure on him to give up his FFL because he received very few firearms (and in some years no firearms). There is some specific rule they showed him.

If you're not going to receive firearms for resale, perhaps you don't need an FFL. People send this guy receivers and stocks and he mills custom barrels for long range shooting. ATF still said that no FFL required (since the receivers that customers send have serial numbers).

Send me a PM if you need more info and I'll contact my friend.


If he does gun repair work for remuneration, he requires a 01 or 07 FFL.

I think he either is mistaken or getting smoke blown up his ass by an IOI looking to eliminate one more valid licensee.


27 CFR 478.11 - Definitions

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

Engaged in the business—
(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

Principal objective of livelihood and profit. The intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection:
Subpart D—Licenses

§ 478.41(a) Each person intending to engage in business as an importer or manufacturer of firearms or ammunition, or a dealer in firearms shall, before commencing such business, obtain the license required by this subpart for the business to be operated. Each person who desires to obtain a license as a collector of curios or relics may obtain such a license under the provisions of this subpart.



Nice is overrated

And people wonder why I carry a SIG P320

Death to Terrorists
 
Posts: 26912 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
If you see me running
try to keep up
Picture of mrvmax
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
quote:
Originally posted by SR:
A friend has been doing gunsmith work for 20+ years and has a complete gunsmithing shop. The ATF paid him a visit and put pressure on him to give up his FFL because he received very few firearms (and in some years no firearms). There is some specific rule they showed him.

If you're not going to receive firearms for resale, perhaps you don't need an FFL. People send this guy receivers and stocks and he mills custom barrels for long range shooting. ATF still said that no FFL required (since the receivers that customers send have serial numbers).

Send me a PM if you need more info and I'll contact my friend.


If he does gun repair work for remuneration, he requires a 01 or 07 FFL.

I think he either is mistaken or getting smoke blown up his ass by an IOI looking to eliminate one more valid licensee.


27 CFR 478.11 - Definitions

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

Engaged in the business—
(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

Principal objective of livelihood and profit. The intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection:
Subpart D—Licenses

§ 478.41(a) Each person intending to engage in business as an importer or manufacturer of firearms or ammunition, or a dealer in firearms shall, before commencing such business, obtain the license required by this subpart for the business to be operated. Each person who desires to obtain a license as a collector of curios or relics may obtain such a license under the provisions of this subpart.

Exactly, anybody that has been an FFL for very long knows the IOI’s are notorious for giving wrong information. If they cannot provide a reference in 5300.4 then don’t believe it.
 
Posts: 2254 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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