quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
So, what are y’all suggesting we do about this…? Is it really just to let them all die?
That’s certainly one strategy but I don’t think it’s gonna work. Hasn’t worked yet.

I wouldn't presume to have an answer for this, SIGnified. I just know that I reject the idea of living in a society which is in such a condition that the burden of attempting to counteract the behavior of these habitual drug users is placed upon the man on the street.

Imagine the civil liability for some layman administering a drug to an unconscious person.

I presume you’re referencing Legislation requiring regular people to provide Narcan? If so, I completely agree with what you wrote.

I was addressing the larger issue of opioid addiction in general. (Actually any addiction related to substances and complex neural chemistry.) These are completely different/separate topics. I should’ve been more specific.

For anyone that is interested, I believe drugs like Suboxone can be provided to willing patients via implant/injection with a lot longer duration eg one month to six months, blocking mu receptor for opiates, thus helping their transition off. Some may argue about the efficacy of Subutex and similar drugs. YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by PD:
All these first person accounts are meaningless. Every procedure is different, everyone’s ability to control pain is different, and responses to medication vary among patients.

Exactly this!

Reference the SG's suggestion that the general population willy-nilly administer Narcan for an opioid overdose, here's a partial list of side effects: hypotension, hypertension, ventricular tachycardia and fibrillation, dyspnea, pulmonary edema, and cardiac arrest. Death, coma, and encephalopathy have been reported as sequelae of these events. It can precipate worse withdrawal symptoms. It requires repeat administration in a couple of minutes if ineffective, maybe multiple times. Effects may be delayed. And someone who has OD'd may well die regardless of intervention, after you have administered a drug to them which could in fact have caused their death. And even if they survive, any deficit that they may or may not already have may be your responsibilty. I'm sure forum attorneys can weigh in, but even as a medical professional I'd be extremely cautious of administering Narcan to someone unconscious, status unknown, as opposed to calling 911 and administering basic life support without medical backup. The word "nuts" comes to mind, both for the idea and the response to the SG.

Best to give everyone a dose on the Narcan in the morning as a prophylactic measure. Best to be safe! Also if you walk into the den and find someone snoozing on the couch, best to hit them again, you can never be too sure.

I can only smile and shake my head.

I had a toxic aspirin incident last year, now I can take only Tylenol as an OTC pain med. Tylenol is worthless.

My son is a sports medicine doc, says that abuse of prescription pain meds is a big deal one that they have to very carefully monitor.

Our church tried to help a prescription pain med addict, the thing totally backfired, everything we provided to help him he swapped one evening in Oakland for one more hit. He stole from the homeless shelter, so they kicked him out. So he had no home, no food, no transportation, the ER at the welfare hospital wouldn't take him, he then just disappeared.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc H.:
Reference the SG's suggestion that the general population willy-nilly administer Narcan for an opioid overdose, here's a partial list of side effects: hypotension, hypertension, ventricular tachycardia and fibrillation, dyspnea, pulmonary edema, and cardiac arrest. Death, coma, and encephalopathy..

That seems like a list to cause concern.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc H.:
Reference the SG's suggestion that the general population willy-nilly administer Narcan for an opioid overdose, here's a partial list of side effects: hypotension, hypertension, ventricular tachycardia and fibrillation, dyspnea, pulmonary edema, and cardiac arrest. Death, coma, and encephalopathy have been reported as sequelae of these events. It can precipate worse withdrawal symptoms. It requires repeat administration in a couple of minutes if ineffective, maybe multiple times. Effects may be delayed. And someone who has OD'd may well die regardless of intervention, after you have administered a drug to them which could in fact have caused their death. And even if they survive, any deficit that they may or may not already have may be your responsibilty. I'm sure forum attorneys can weigh in, but even as a medical professional I'd be extremely cautious of administering Narcan to someone unconscious, status unknown, as opposed to calling 911 and administering basic life support without medical backup. The word "nuts" comes to mind, both for the idea and the response to the SG.

Plus it ruins their high, and I saw folks get seven kinds of pissed once fully awake.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
So, what are y’all suggesting we do about this…? Is it really just to let them all die?
That’s certainly one strategy but I don’t think it’s gonna work. Hasn’t worked yet. But if we going with that route, all them drunk boozers out there should probably be taken out too.

rburgs original post was regarding those abusers that have made the legitimate use of pain medication all but illegal. I think it's a bit absurd to equate those that drink to those that use drugs, especially those that abuse them. Those addicted to alcohol do not typically steal from others to get their next fix. Also, 1st responders don't normally die from casual contact with alcohol unlike some of the other narcotic substances out there. I will concede though that drunk drivers should be taken out. You can add those that get alcohol poisoning to that list too. Not much use for them!

If people are dead set on resuscitating druggies with Narcan, I think they need to add a chemical that induces sterilization. That way, it helps combat the rapidly spreading "disease" of addiction, by cutting those genetically predisposed individuals out of the gene pool. No need to keep perpetuating the cycle.

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Originally posted by mutedblade:
Those addicted to alcohol do not typically steal from others to get their next fix.

I have known many alcoholics who stole in order to buy booze.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:

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Originally posted by mutedblade:
Those addicted to alcohol do not typically steal from others to get their next fix.

I have known many alcoholics who stole in order to buy booze.

Please. You can not compare alcoholics to junkies. Junkies are a pox on society.

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Originally posted by captain127:
To piggy back on this- my personal opinion as a long practicing medical professional is the whole mess can be laid at the feet of joint commission! Back in the late 80’s early 90’s they were the ones jabbering about doctors not controlling pain make pain the fifth vital sign you must address pain we are watching you!

FINALLY someone who understands the root of the problem!!
The above is why addicts would show up at an ED and demand narcotics - and get them. Doesn't matter if it's their 3 prescription this week, give them what they want or we'll get a complaint.
The hospital administrators couldn't possibly tell the fuckups where to shove their complaint. That wouldn't be touchy-feely.

So now we go down the road of legit pain needs being ignored.

I had gingivitis and surgery on all four quadrants at the same time. Amazing pain! Drugs couldn’t cut it. I paced like a caged animal.
I tried ice cream. Letting a little melt away at a time. Pain just melted away.
Now I’m overweight and addicted to rocky road and salted caramel. Dam! I don’t even want to quit!

I believe there should be a 3-strikes limit on EMS response to an OD

after the 3rd call, the frequent flyer is on their own

if we simply stopped preventing these people from trying to commit suicide, the problem will look after itself and cost us nothing in return

and we won't be putting EMS at risk for nothing

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Please. You can not compare alcoholics to junkies. Junkies are a pox on society.

And how many heroin addicts do you know that get behind the driver's wheel of a car and mow down other innocent people? Alcoholic are a pox upon society, it's just that alcoholics enjoy the moral safety of being addicted to a socially tolerated toxin with so-called legitimate uses.

Tally up the drunk driver deaths and mayhem, the domestic violence calls, the cirrhosis of the liver and other adverse health impacts, the psychological impact of alcoholism on family members, employers, legal system.

Alcoholic are just junkies who can buy their poison in a store.

What a mess I started. Sorry for that. I have managed to get thru last night by taking the meds they offered, then a good stiff drink of codeine cough medicine. I went to sleep, which is all I wanted. My secret bottle is now only half full, with me taking an occasional hit every week or so. I need to save it for just such purposes, except tonight I'm taking it again.

I've called my family, such as it is. Older son doesn't have any good meds, or so he says. Younger son says he doesn't and I believe him, he's already taken them. Wife is/was a nurse and is cold hearted. After all, she's in the medical rackets and if its not her pain, she doesn't care.

I wish Shugart was still alive and posting. In my desperate search I located a bottle with a single capsule of Percodan. Whatever that was. I seem to remember it being good because it was prescribed for a nasty kidney stone. Yes, it has a 1982 date. I was going to try it out but then I remembered my little bottle of cough medicine. All was good. Yes, the sites inside my mouth still hurts, but I've been able to eat a little on the other side. Lunch was a Wendy's frosty malt, supper was corn and mashed potatoes. If you're hungry, and watch what you're doing it'll go down.

I think we should put drugs in the water supply. Something to mellow people the hell out.

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Originally posted by rburg:
I wish Shugart was still alive and posting.

He is!

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Originally posted by TBH:
I had gingivitis and surgery on all four quadrants at the same time. Amazing pain! Drugs couldn’t cut it. I paced like a caged animal.
I tried ice cream. Letting a little melt away at a time. Pain just melted away.
Now I’m overweight and addicted to rocky road and salted caramel. Dam! I don’t even want to quit!

I might suggest cherry almond fudge.

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Originally posted by PD:
Please. You can not compare alcoholics to junkies. Junkies are a pox on society.

Apples and oranges. Not the same, but both are fruit.

Alcoholics and junkies. Not the same, but both are substance abusers. Each type has those who will do whatever it takes to get their dose. In some ways alcoholics might be worse, as they have legal access to their substance.

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Originally posted by V-Tail:
In some ways alcoholics might be worse, as they have legal access to their substance.

Yeah but they’re not breaking into homes and cars. Drugs destroy the fabric of a neighborhood. They can destroy property values and hurt small businesses. Most importantly, junkies have had an adverse effect on medical care for law-abiding patients. FUCK JUNKIES!