I just had a new water heater installed, and the guys told me when they got here that my 16 year old yellow gas line wasn't up to code due to being susceptible to lightning strikes. They said they either had to ground it, or replace it with the new FlashShield/CSST. I told them where the breaker panel and master ground was (just outside of that room, would have to drill thru a wall), and he said "ahhh, we'll probably just run the CSST".

Fast forward to today, and I received the invoice in the mail with an additional $363 charge "for 30' of FlashShield, 2 man-hours, and fittings". Seems a little excessive to me. It was actually about 23' of CSST, and NO WAY in hell it took more than one man-hour to run; I was here the whole time. All out in the open in an unfinished basement.

I had specifically asked before I accepted the bid, if the price was firm, and was told "yes, unless something really odd comes up". I offered to send pics of the previous install (done by same company in 2005), to ensure an accurate bid, and they said it was not needed.

In the end, I'd probably have OK'd a $200 upcharge, given the choice up front: $100 in material (a 25' spool retails at $84), and a man-hour of labor at $100. But $363 seems like an unreasonable ask, especially since I wasn't notified that the additional charges were going to be such a big chunk of change.

What does the hive/pros think?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Outnumbered,

Bringing up to code was the right call. He wasn't pulling your leg.
The gastite is pricey and the fittings are really expensive for what you get.
You have to consider the contractor running for parts.
Time is money.
Markup is generally 40 to 50%

quote:

Originally posted by rexles:
Bringing up to code was the right call. He wasn't pulling your leg.
The gastite is pricey and the fittings are really expensive for what you get.
You have to consider the contractor running for parts.
Time is money.
Markup is generally 40 to 50%

Lots of good info. If I had a concern it would be more focused on the quality of the install than the price.

So they changed out the CSST for flashshield CSST. Both are required to be grounded.

quote:

The NFPA 70, National Electrical Code requires all above ground metallic piping (water, gas, electrical conduits, etc.) ... NEC® Section 250.104 (B) requires that any metal piping including gas piping that is likely to become energized be bonded to the grounding electrode system. Jan 7, 2015

Going off your post, they changed out the CSST but still left it ungrounded?

Sounds cheap to me, as a stand-alone job. Even as an add-on. I'm not up on grounding, but a guy I work with does use the black-jacketed stuff.

If it was me, it would be, "Sir, we have to set up the tri-stand and oiler. Get that Slinky-Stuff out of there and install proper American-made steel gas pipe, cut and threaded to size. Much safer for everybody, wouldn't you agree? Just an extra $1,250, sir."

The bill is actually really reasonable IMO. If something comes in a 30' spool and say your job uses 24' (with a 1' of waste), there is a chance in hell you'll find a use for that 6' piece of pipe.

How is anyone supposed to drive TO your house, and then TO another job (which probably takes an hour alone) and do the job, and charge 1 hour labor and stay in business? Drive time has to be included. You cannot pay a tech for 8 hours of labor (time he punches in and time he punches out) and bill your customers 4 hours or 5 hours for the day and stay in business. And it sounds like they used 2 guys to do the job.

Let me clarify, they were already here getting paid to install a water heater. This was add-on work. They had the extra material in the truck, didn't have to go get anything. It took one guy 30 minutes to swap the gas line - I was there and saw it, since I was in the basement working on something else at the same time.

So does it still sound reasonable to charge $363 for $100 worth of material and a half hour labor?

I certainly wouldn't charge that much here in WNY.

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:

So does it still sound reasonable to charge $363 for $100 worth of material and a half hour labor?

No, the only extra charge should have been for the material and another half hour of time for labor-if they charge by the hour. If the job was bid out regardless of time spent-like many are- then you should have been only charged for the piping....and I’d be on the phone to the company about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Outnumbered:
Let me clarify, they were already here getting paid to install a water heater. This was add-on work. They had the extra material in the truck, didn't have to go get anything. It took one guy 30 minutes to swap the gas line - I was there and saw it, since I was in the basement working on something else at the same time.

So does it still sound reasonable to charge $363 for $100 worth of material and a half hour labor?

if they were already there, had the parts on them, and it took 30 minutes. Then they should've charged an hour and for material.....How long did the total job take for the water heater AND the piping and how many hours were you billed for?

The job was flat bid at (quote):

"$X for labor and materials to install a 75 gallon Bradford White power vent unit, including changing the vent pipe from 2" to 3"."

It took 2 guys about 4 hours, which is what she stated as a guess over the phone before I gave them the job.

quote:

Going off your post, they changed out the CSST but still left it ungrounded?

Yeah? As far as I know there is no allowable CSST that doesn't require bonding. It needs to be bonded at the meter, manifold, or first brass fitting where it changes from black pipe.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Going off your post, they changed out the CSST but still left it ungrounded?

Yeah? As far as I know there is no allowable CSST that doesn't require bonding. It needs to be bonded at the meter, manifold, or first brass fitting where it changes from black pipe.

Good luck on getting an answer.
Asks for help from HVAC/Plumbers, but ignores them and has a conversation with someone in the boating industry. lol

Yes it appears to be still ungrounded. I was asleep when you posted last night, and out the door at 5 this morning. I just got home, so I couldn't check to be sure until a minute ago. Sheesh, please cut me some slack instead of assuming I was being rude and ignoring you!

Anyhow, this brings up another question..... Was the yellow line, installed in 2005, which looked similar to the black CSST just installed, other than color, in need of replacing for code, or should it have been left alone, and just been bonded at the first brass fitting at the transition from black pipe? Was anything additional actually accomplished?

Was anything accomplished(?) in my opinion, no. Other then they got an additional $363 upcharge.

The older CSST would have been fine had they took the time to properly ground it.

Which state are we talking about here?
I'm curious as to what they charged you for the power vented water heater installed.

I'm in a pretty rural (poor-ish) area of Wisconsin. The initial install quote was $1,637. A flat $2k with the upcharge.

4 hr install, 2 guys, you did alright at 2k complete.

What about the grounding/bonding? Is this thing still definitely not up to code?

The gas line must be grounded to meet code.

There should be a bonding clamp and 6 AWG wire connected to the electrical system ground.

Do you see a ground hooked up anywhere to the black pipe or CSST manifold?

I looked inside the basement, and there's definitely no ground connected to anywhere on the gas lines. Is it possible/acceptable for it to be grounded outside, after the meter?

Other question - is there any chance whatsoever that the yellow line installed previously had no metal braiding inside, and would have required replacement no matter what? As in, could it have been just rubber/plastic/fiberglass, and wouldn't meet code, even if the black pipe was grounded?

Thank you for all your help in this! I don't mind paying the piper for necessary work correctly done, but don't want to get hosed just to line someone's pockets, especially if the additional work isn't done right!