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Get my pies
outta the oven!

Picture of PASig
posted
I know this article is almost a year old but I just happened to see it recently and had to post it for comments.

The way I see it, Germany would rather be stuck with aging aircraft and NO 5th generation fighters...because Trump. They can't stand Donald Trump is what this comes down to. Dumb.

Meanwhile many other countries in Europe ARE buying the F-35, like Poland and Italy and Denmark but Germany won't have anything like it until 2040.

Way to go! Roll Eyes

quote:

German F-35 decision sacrifices NATO capability for Franco-German industrial cooperation

By: Hans Binnendijk and Jim Townsend  
February 8, 2019
DefenseNews


While the German decision last week to remove the Lockheed Martin F-35 from consideration as a replacement for 90 aging Tornado fighters solidifies Franco-German industrial cooperation, it could come at the expense of making Germany’s Luftwaffe a less capable air force until at least 2040, when a new advanced Franco-German fighter becomes available.

The decision also places German domestic political considerations ahead of Germany’s leadership role in NATO. This would be understandable for a nation that does not perceive a significant military threat from Russia, but it is disturbing for those who emphasize the need to maximize NATO’s deterrent posture in the East. The decision should be reconsidered.

• After removing the F-35 (and also the older F-15) from consideration, Germany now has three choices. It can augment its planned 177 Eurofighter Typhoon fleet with up to 90 additional Typhoons adapted for suppression of enemy air defense and electronic warfare missions. That fleet of some 267 Typhoons would simplify servicing and training, but it could also ground the entire German fighter fleet should major structural problems appear in the aircraft. The Typhoon has had considerable readiness problems: Germany would be putting all of its fighter eggs in one basket.

• Germany could alternatively buy 90 Boeing F-18s (Super Hornets and Growlers), which is still under active German consideration. That decision would provide better air-to-ground and electronic-warfare capabilities for Germany than the additional Typhoons. But it would still leave Germany behind without a fifth-generation fighter as other allies move onto the future of air power.

• Or Germany could buy some mix of additional Typhoons and F-18s. Today, Germany flies no U.S.-built aircraft, and some observers are betting against the F-18 for that reason.

These three remaining alternatives are all second best from the perspective of maximizing Germany’s air power and its leadership among NATO air forces.

Operationally, the F-35 is by far the best airplane in this mix. It has stealth and battle-management capabilities that are a generation ahead of the Typhoon or F-18. It is a force multiplier that enhances the capabilities of lesser allied aircraft. If the Luftwaffe needs to penetrate heavy air defenses in a future fight, their pilots would be more secure in the F-35. The Luftwaffe without F-35s would be hard-pressed to fight alone in a contested air environment.

Currently eight NATO nations have agreed to purchase the F-35. Those nations will have highly interoperable fifth-generation aircraft. They will provide for the elite fighters in future NATO air-superiority and defense-suppression missions. Without the F-35, Germany will be absent from that elite group, and German pilots would probably be given only secondary missions.

The F-35 also has advantages to perform Germany’s NATO nuclear mission. The ability of the F-35 to penetrate and survive these missions is superior. The F-35 would have been nuclear-certified prior to delivery. Certification for the Typhoon and F-18s would take additional time, money and German political capital. The default position, therefore, might be further life extensions for the old Tornados and further degradation of NATO’s nuclear deterrence.
It is no wonder that the chief of the German Luftwaffe publicly declared his support for the F-35. He was silenced and retired early.

So why did German political leaders make this decision?

Money alone is not the answer. While the F-35 is a much better plane, its costs are coming down considerably to the point where they would be about as much as a Typhoon. The Typhoon would, of course, have local labor benefits.
Nor is availability the answer. Lockheed has told the Germans that they could have their first F-35 three years after a contract is signed.
The answer is more political and industrial.

The Merkel government rules by grand coalition, with Social Democrats holding key positions in the Federal Foreign Office and the Finance Ministry. The Social Democrats tend to resist greater defense spending and have a more benign view of Russia’s intentions. Many resist Germany’s nuclear mission. And no one in the coalition wants to reward U.S. President Donald Trump.

More important, France and Germany are drawing closer together on defense policy in the wake of Brexit and President Trump’s criticisms of NATO. The recently signed Aachen Treaty committed the two nations to new levels of cooperation in defense and foreign policy.

A center piece of this reinforced Franco-German defense cooperation is an agreement reached last summer to jointly design and produce a next-generation fighter by 2040. Dassault and Airbus plan to leverage their current Rafale and Typhoon aircraft as a bridge to this new joint aircraft. Paris fears that a German purchase of the F-35, especially in large numbers, could undercut the need for the next-gen fighter and harm European capabilities to produce advanced fighters. They have let Berlin know this.

A strong Franco-German engine at the heart of European defense is to be encouraged. But it should not come at the expense of optimal NATO air power and deterrence. Nor should it come at the expense of broader NATO solidarity.
Germany should reconsider its F-35 decision and purchase at least enough F-35s to retain its leadership position in European air power and its familiarity with fifth-generation aircraft technology. Its European allies, who will also be negatively impacted, should weigh in. Failing this, a purchase of the F-18 would be a second-best option.

Hans Binnendijk is a distinguished fellow at the Atlantic Council and formerly served as the U.S. National Security Council’s senior director for defense policy. James Townsend is a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security and formerly served as deputy assistant secretary of defense for European and NATO policy.


Link


 
Posts: 26496 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
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We shouldn’t be arming future caliphates anyways.
 
Posts: 8661 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Stupid
Allergy
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quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
We shouldn’t be arming future caliphates anyways.


Exactamundo


"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway." Steve McQueen...
 
Posts: 5720 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: July 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Germany was never a major or even a minor partner on the F-35 JSF project; not buying into the F-35 is the least of NATO's or Europe's defense concerns. The bigger issue is their continued defunding and foot-dragging of their overall NATO commitments and maintaining of the Bundeswehr as a whole.

The plane they did choose, the Eurofighter Typhoon(a very good aircraft on its own), they cut short their initial buy, as a fighter and for strike roles. Continued defending has limited that inventory to minimal flight time and no replacement parts; more planes are grounded for maintenance reasons than, are airworthy. The Navy's newest frigate, was refused as the workmanship from the shipyard was so bad, and the submarines are welded to their piers due to maintenance shortfalls. The Army is a hollow shell, having sold-off most of its Leopard 2 tanks, its artillery can't shoot due multiple range restrictions and ammunition shortages, zero maintenance and, part supplies limitations. Germany has a lot of problems with its military beyond procurement.
 
Posts: 9959 | Location: Wine Country | Registered: September 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Germany might be more likely to be attacked from within than by another country.
 
Posts: 9759 | Location: Somewhere north of a hot humid hell in the summer. | Registered: January 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Really don't care if Germany is well armed or not. The world is likely a better place if they remain impotent whores.

Besides they spent all their military DNA in WW2, that warrior seed has been culled from their proud lineage.
 
Posts: 44943 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get my pies
outta the oven!

Picture of PASig
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quote:
Originally posted by corsair:

more planes are grounded for maintenance reasons than, are airworthy. The Navy's newest frigate, was refused as the workmanship from the shipyard was so bad, and the submarines are welded to their piers due to maintenance shortfalls. The Army is a hollow shell, having sold-off most of its Leopard 2 tanks, its artillery can't shoot due multiple range restrictions and ammunition shortages, zero maintenance and, part supplies limitations. Germany has a lot of problems with its military beyond procurement.



There are some that would be perfectly happy with seeing Germany not become a military powerhouse ever again...


 
Posts: 26496 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
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They're still pissed at the how they came in "First Place" in the "F-104 Parts Distribution Program".




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Posts: 40328 | Location: fl | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too old to run,
too mean to quit!
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According to family and friends in Germany, the country has turned away from the US, and apparently NATO as well.

Does anyone on this side of the pond actually recognize the staggering amount of US dollars we pumped into their economy and government?

And I am not talking about grants, etc. from our government. I am talking about all that payroll money paid to our troops stationed there. And how so damned much of it ended up going into German banks from businesses dealing with US soldiers and their families.

I said from the beginning that Merkel was a bad deal for Germany, and it has become very clear.

Anyone else remember how she opened the doors for all those "refugees" that flooded the country? In at least one example, a German family had a house they wanted to rent so they advertised it. Stating the amount of rent they expected.

Gubbermint got involved and told the family that they had to rent it to "refugees" and for half what the owners could get from a German family. And that is only one case.

Anyone else remember those 1000s of "refugees" lined up for entry? You know, the ones dressed in the latest jeans, shirts, smart phones?

It is no wonder that Germany has taken such a hit on the international scene. Their chief executive officer has no clue what the hell she is doing, and much of what she is doing, seems to me, is aimed at damaging the country.

I still remember that she came from the EAST ZONE.


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 25009 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too old to run,
too mean to quit!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
quote:
Originally posted by corsair:

more planes are grounded for maintenance reasons than, are airworthy. The Navy's newest frigate, was refused as the workmanship from the shipyard was so bad, and the submarines are welded to their piers due to maintenance shortfalls. The Army is a hollow shell, having sold-off most of its Leopard 2 tanks, its artillery can't shoot due multiple range restrictions and ammunition shortages, zero maintenance and, part supplies limitations. Germany has a lot of problems with its military beyond procurement.



There are some that would be perfectly happy with seeing Germany not become a military powerhouse ever again...


I spent a total of 11 years in Germany. Nine of those years in a US Army uniform stationed along the E/W border. Do I regret it? After all of Merkel's BS I find it hard not to say that I regret it.

Edited to add:

We had more than a few of our military who died in uniform while in Germany. Training accidents like arty shells dropping into bivouac areas, M48 tanks catching fire and they were loaded with full combat loads of ammo and gasoline. I was in communications and we had 24/7 commo when troops were in the field so I got to hear a lot of what was going on.

I told my wife that Merkel was the wrong person, wrong time, wrong place and wrong job. Wife was not so sure back then. She is now.

In my view, merkel has visions of grandeur for herself. Like "Her majesty of Europe"!


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 25009 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
There are some that would be perfectly happy with seeing Germany not become a military powerhouse ever again...

No doubt...however, they come from two very different camps.
One side sees Germany as a latent power, easily able to rise up to its former Prussian and early 20th century prowess. The other, a very leftist point of view, eschewing all things capitalistic and martial. Somewhere in the middle, is the former FRG/BRD.
 
Posts: 9959 | Location: Wine Country | Registered: September 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As long as they have an aircraft that moves quickly in reverse, they will be just fine.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Really don't care if Germany is well armed or not. The world is likely a better place if they remain impotent whores.


I agree with this.


—————————
Indefatigably succinct.
 
Posts: 2553 | Location: Northeast Georgia | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posting without pants
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You would think that after going 0 and 2 they would appreciate US weapon tech....





Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up."
 
Posts: 32734 | Location: St. Louis MO | Registered: February 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do the next
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I'm perfectly OK with Germany not building a powerful military.
 
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Hop head
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quote:
More important, France and Germany are drawing closer together on defense policy in the wake of Brexit and President Trump’s criticisms of NATO. The recently signed Aachen Treaty committed the two nations to new levels of cooperation in defense and foreign policy.

A center piece of this reinforced Franco-German defense cooperation is an agreement reached last summer to jointly design and produce a next-generation fighter by 2040. Dassault and Airbus plan to leverage their current Rafale and Typhoon aircraft as a bridge to this new joint aircraft. Paris fears that a German purchase of the F-35, especially in large numbers, could undercut the need for the next-gen fighter and harm European capabilities to produce advanced fighters. They have let Berlin know this




France has been proud of their planes for a good while,

reckon they are looking for a partner (for sales and expenses etc) in Germany



www.chesterfieldarmament.com
 
Posts: 8160 | Location: Beach VA,not VA Beach | Registered: July 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
delicately calloused
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Fokkers...



You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
 
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Way to punch, Merkel!

 
Posts: 7525 | Registered: September 26, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bobtheelf:
I'm perfectly OK with Germany not building a powerful military.


I've been perfectly happy with German Women and German Beer.


*********
"It's been a rough week, but on a positive note - I didn't need any bail money and I didn't have to hide any bodies".
 
Posts: 7191 | Location: Arizona | Registered: August 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't think this has really anything to do with Trump. For quite some time, probably the since the 60's and 70's, some European countries (especially France) have taken a view to "buy European" when they can do so. I can't think of any US military aircraft the French have except for a handful of tankers and AWACS. They have built their Mirages and Rafales instead. It's pretty much the same for Germany. They built their Tornados and Eurofighters instead. Instead of buying a mix of C-17s and C-130s, they opted to spend endless billions and decades to develop the troubled A400M. All of that happened decades before Trump.

So the fact that Germany isn't buying F-35s and wants to develop a new plane instead is of no surprise to me. I agree with the headline

quote:
German F-35 decision sacrifices NATO capability for Franco-German industrial cooperation
.

The headline is true but has little to nothing to do with Trump Derangement Syndrome, it's about jobs and developing in-house technology. Don't get me wrong, I don't think their ruling elite like Trump at all, but that has nothing to do with them passing on the F-35. They have a long history of passing on buying US weapon systems.


----------------------------------
"These things you say we will have, we already have."
"That's true. I ain't promising you nothing extra."
 
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