quote:

In the first place I do not believe his numbers.

If he stated the numbers in the article, then I call BS on him.

He said he is losing some 500 birds a day, and as many as 80 eagles are doing it. That averages out to about 6.25 chickens per eagle per day. That is one helluva lot of chicken for each eagle

Scroll up a little ways and read FN in MT’s post.

I have an issue with calling a poultry farmer a “rancher.”

How does one round up free range chickens on a 3200 acre ranch?

Specially trained Chihuahua-Heeler mixes?

For general education:

White Oak Pastures

TMats, they run 750-800 head of cattle and around 1,000 goats and sheep each in addition to their poultry flocks and pigs. Does that make them a rancher?

Just about everyone I know now has to run everything to stay alive including veg...

I guess so. I’ll make a good Act of Contrition

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
This would not be a problem if Benjamin Franklin's preference had been chosen. Supposedly it's a myth he fought for it, but he did express his opinions about it in a letter to his daughter.

What was Ben’s preference?

I have to say I love Benjamin Franklin's wit and wisdom. I admit to being somewhat prejudiced, having grown up near Philadelphia. Some of my ancestors were pew holders along with him at Christ Church during the same time (though I have no idea if they knew each other).

https://founders.archives.gov/...anklin/01-41-02-0327

From Benjamin Franklin to Sarah Bache, 26 January 1784
To Sarah Bache
Transcript, autographed letter (draft), and press copy of letter or letters signed: Library of Congress

For my own part I wish the bald eagle had not been chosen as the representative of our country. He is a bird of bad moral character. He does not get his living honestly. You may have seen him perched on some dead tree, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the labour of the fishing hawk; and when that diligent bird has at length taken a fish, and is bearing it to his nest for the support of his mate and young ones, the bald eagle pursues him, and takes it from him. With all this injustice, he is never in good case, but like those among men who live by sharping and robbing he is generally poor and often very lousy. Besides he is a rank coward: the little king bird not bigger than a sparrow attacks him boldly and drives him out of the district. He is therefore by no means a proper emblem for the brave and honest Cincinnati of America, who have driven all the king birds from our country, though exactly fit for that order of knights which the French call Chevaliers d’Industrie.

I am on this account not displeased that the figure is not known as a bald eagle, but looks more like a turkey. For in truth, the turkey is in comparison a much more respectable bird, and withal a true original native of America. Eagles have been found in all countries, but the turkey was peculiar to ours, the first of the species seen in Europe being brought to France by the Jesuits from Canada, and served up at the wedding table of Charles the ninth. He is besides, (though a little vain and silly tis true, but not the worse emblem for that) a bird of courage, and would not hesitate to attack a grenadier of the British guards who should presume to invade his farm yard with a red coat on.

quote:

“You can’t help but admire them, they are beautiful,” Harris said of America’s national symbol. “But they are the most combative creature I’ve ever seen.”

Sounds like we picked an appropriate national bird.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by FN in MT:
So many of the replies are typical of folks who were never around farming operations or predators.

We HAVE bald and golden eagles here. I have lost several cats to them over the past 30 years. I have seen goldens carry off fawns, then drop them to their death.

I have seen eagles in a field where we had been shooting gophers. They will go to the dead gophers, pick them open and consume only the heart , liver and maybe pick at the easiest meat. Then move on to the next body. So the thought of them killing multiples in a day, only taking the choicest bits, is VERY possible.

I've seen coyotes as well as fox who get into a hen house and kill ALL of the occupants, while only eating or carrying away one or two. Thirty or forty dead, but only one or two actually eaten. So mass killings by these birds, very possible.

Multiply by eighty birds in that area. Such losses are very possible.

So? Why are you and I responsible? His farming operation, he knew the rules going in. Eagles have been protected for decades. He takes the risk.

The human race is not at risk if eagles eat even 10,000 chickens. And again, his chickens, his problem.

Oh I agree with You....simply trying to validate his loss claims via some personal experience. A lot like the folks with their beachfront/river front homes. You should be aware of floods going in.

As a general rule I don't support subsidies, including those favored by President Trump, however I see a restricted use for them in emergency situations such as the government loans to U.S. airlines after the 9/11 attacks.

In a perfect world there would be no need of subsidies or government compensation...but we don't live in a perfect world...we live in an imperfect world, one in which over-reaching government rules often negatively impact businesses' ability to maintain profitability.

Also, it's worth noting that, strictly speaking, we are not talking about White Oak Farms receiving a subsidy, which would imply that it requires government assistance to remain in business. They are receiving compensation for losses suffered due to their inability to effectively mitigate the eagle problem because of a U.S. law.

I suspect that the situation is as mark_a suggested earlier and that the Bald Eagles moved in after White Oak stared to free-range their chickens.

I don't much care whether the chicken I eat is organic or free-range, the cheap chicken is plenty fine for me...but if there is a market for free-range chickens and White Oak Farms wants to base their business model on filling that market need then I say best of luck to them.

Over many fishing and hunting trips I've stopped to admire Bald Eagles and feel a sense of pride when I think of them as our national symbol. There are a majestic animal...and you know what...if their numbers in the wild have recovered to the point where they have become a nuisance then I'm completely fine with a change in rules that would allow limited hunting of them. If our national symbol had instead been the Grizzly bear or wild boar I would be just as supportive of hunting them as well.







When I think of nuisance animals like the Canada geese, with their overpopulation in urban areas, the mess they make on sidewalks and walking paths and trails, the traffic they snarl, I'm reminded of just how ridiculous some of our animal protective laws have become. Once an animal's population recovers sufficiently to be self-sustaining they should be removed from any protective laws and hunted to maintain their numbers.

The better option would have been to allow Mr. Harris to hunt a number of the eagles or otherwise allow for a managed hunt supervised by the appropriate authorities...but as he wasn't given this choice then I don't see any recourse for him but to go through the proper channels to be compensated for his losses.

Obviously the U.S. Department of Agriculture Farm Services Administration has the Livestock Indemnity Program for a reason and realize that government rules are negatively impacting businesses...and as the owner of the ranch points out, while his operation may be able to sustain a number of losses smaller operations may not, given the same problems.

As someone who has been through the government appeals process to receive due compensation I know first hand how complicated, time consuming, and aggravating it can be. I'm certain that Mr. Harris was required to prove his case to the government before being compensated.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Obviously the U.S. Department of Agriculture Farm Services Administration has the Livestock Indemnity Program for a reason and realize that government rules are negatively impacting businesses...and as the owner of the ranch points out, while his operation may be able to sustain a number of losses smaller operations may not, given the same problems.

As someone who has been through the government appeals process to receive due compensation I know first hand how complicated, time consuming, and aggravating it can be. I'm certain that Mr. Harris was required to prove his case to the government before being compensated.

Stop making sense. We hate it when the facts get in the way of a good argument.

No, the eagles were there first, decimated by farmers and now through government regulation have returned to their habitat.

There's a reason chicken farmers grow them in large COVERED buildings.

Chicken is on the menu for everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
No, the eagles were there first, decimated by farmers and now through government regulation have returned to their habitat.

There's a reason chicken farmers grow them in large COVERED buildings.

Chicken is on the menu for everything.

Seems to me that the raccoons and opossums that breached the chicken coop were there first as well and in their habitat, but that didn't stop you from blasting them either...to say nothing of the rodents.

Eagles are beautiful majestic birds of prey and I truly hope they thrive in the wild...but like any animal, to include raccoons and possums, when they become a problem they must be managed and hunting is a humane way to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

Seems to me that the raccoons and opossums that breached the chicken coop were there first as well and in their habitat, but that didn't stop you from blasting them either...to say nothing of the rodents.

Eagles are beautiful majestic birds of prey and I truly hope they thrive in the wild...but like any animal, to include raccoons and possums, when they become a problem they must be managed and hunting is a humane way to do so.

The difference is that humans are capable of wiping out an apex predator species like eagles. We couldn't wipe out rats, or even coons, even if we wanted to.

And this guy came to the eagles, long after they became protected. He knew what he was getting into. Even if eagle populations soared (get it?) after he started keeping eagle chow, he knew what he was getting into.

Just so we're all aware, this is a 6th generation farm. In the same place since 1866.

I went on their web site,their stuff is priced with the losses added in what they sell.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
Just so we're all aware, this is a 6th generation farm. In the same place since 1866.

152 years and they haven't figured out to put their chickens in a barn?

No, 152 years and we have a bunch of people declaring with 100% certainty that there were eagles then in that area.

For those bitching about this have you stopped to consider that until the Bald Eagle protection act of 1940 that maybe there wasn't a problem? Even if the original family wasn't shooting them, animals understand areas that are dangerous to them.

JHE, that was 1940 in case you missed it, 74 years after the farm was founded.

The reason you don't see rat blasting videos at places like White Oaks is because they don't have chicken houses where millions of chickens spend their entire life standing in their own shit surrounded by who knows how many rats spreading disease. Their chickens stand on the actual ground and are moved daily to prevent them from staying in a filthy area. By the time the flock makes it back to the same ground the waste has broken down. Rotational grazing is incredibly beneficial for the environment and the animals being raised in that system.

When did they start the free range chicken operation?

Sounds a lot like the Too Big To Fail arguments in this thread.

And the notion that nature and the birds weren't there first is laughably absurd.

If you move to the mountains of Colorado, anywhere in the mountains, for instance, there are bears and big cats to contend with. It doesn't matter whether there are three bears today or thirteen next week, or none for three years then thirty tomorrow, any asshole with any sense at all knows there are bears there, and acts accordingly. It's a bird, in the country, it's not like they have a single neighborhood with boundaries, and all arguments about how many are divorced from reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Bassamatic:
Yeah, I'm not sure about this one. If he can't provide proof of these kills, how does anyone know what or who killed these chickens?

Yep. It's eagles.

quote:

Originally posted by florida boy:

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
Hell, the dogs could be doing it too

A pair of German Shepherds killed my wife's pet rooster a couple of months ago(he used to follow her everywhere) I came out of the house and chased them off but not in time to save the bird.

I had a pair of German Shorthair Pointers that where great hunters but, they were better chicken killers. I loved and hated those dogs.