With all the bipartisan outrage directed at Trump, there should be no problem passing legislation to punish Turkey when they overstep. Right ?

I’ve tried twice to put on paper what I feel and think, simply put it’s like this. We(USA) are not the world police. If there is not a declaration of war against or to support any people, we should pull our combat troops out. Period. Specifically in the Mid East, they have been killing each other for a thousand years, what makes you think we should stop them? Let them kill each other’s and we can kill the ones who get this far.

Now, I know that in the past other regimes have given aid and troops and soldiers, but that is not how our system is supposed to work. If the Congress votes and declares war than let’s have at it, get the politicians out of the way and let St Mattis purveyor of handgrenades and knife hands do the work. Otherwise we (the USA) shouldn’t be there.

I'm sure that our Trump-hating foreign policy experts will say this is false, but take a look. Things are a bit more complicated than "WE ABANDONED OUR ALLIES!!" But, what do I know? I'm just a blind American who can't see THE BIG PICTURE.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I'm sure that our Trump-hating foreign policy experts will say this is false, but take a look. Things are a bit more complicated than "WE ABANDONED OUR ALLIES!!" But, what do I know? I'm just a blind American who can't see THE BIG PICTURE.

Thanks for posting that, I was looking for something else to verify my reading that PKK and YPG are communist organizations.

What a mess, just get us out and let them kill each other.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:...

It would seem some would like the United States to be an Empire while others would like for us to simply be a Nation. I suppose we need to decide which we want to be.

That has been the rub in the US since 1790. Do we pull out of that region completely? Do we just pull back to Israel? Do we cede the Asian-Pacific region and really pull back to just our boarders?

Because it is a tad hard to justify "Empire" building in one area/region as fine and pulling out of another. As that say in the law, it is a "slippery slope", and I do grasp that.

quote:

Besides, it is not clear that the Kurds would do anything but resent us no matter what we do. There is no guaranty that they would be the kind of state we want. Only hope is what we'd have no matter what we do.

I spent a year on advisory duty in "Kurdistan" out along the Iraqi border. The Iranian unit designation was "6th Iranian Infantry". The commanding general was the only Kurdish general in the Iranian army, and the division was nearly 100% Kurds.

My whole advisory team had nothing but great respect for the people we worked with 7 days a week.

I do have to say that that was under the Shah, and can offer no information or opinion how it is there now.

Whether the Kurds will survive as an identifiable "people" or not will depend on the USA, whether we like it or not.

I heartily disagree with what seems to be PDJT's position regarding the Kurds. They deserve a lot more than just being thrown under the bus.

This is the website of the guy in the video

https://intelreform.org/initiatives/

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:...

It would seem some would like the United States to be an Empire while others would like for us to simply be a Nation. I suppose we need to decide which we want to be.

That has been the rub in the US since 1790. Do we pull out of that region completely? Do we just pull back to Israel? Do we cede the Asian-Pacific region and really pull back to just our boarders?

Because it is a tad hard to justify "Empire" building in one area/region as fine and pulling out of another. As that say in the law, it is a "slippery slope", and I do grasp that.

Not sure you understand the use of certain regions for staging various parts of our military and the supplies necessary to run it. Turkey is one of those spots along with numerous places in the Asian-Pacific regions. Don't look at it as empire building but rather stabilizing a region to make sure we don't have disruptions to operations necessary for our government and those of our allies to be able to conduct business. As for what should happen with the Kurds....Not our problem. We don't need the region (because we have Turkey) and as President DJT has stated, it's a money pit with no upside. The Kurds haven't got the numbers to be of any significance in regional politics, so they don't matter to us. Sure, they fight for us, but only when we shared a common goal. President Trump is not an ignorant man. He's been chewing on this for some time and feels that we (along with the Kurds) are in a place that makes a full exit possible.

Kurdistan will not happen until there is a population that supports it with a strong centralized military. The problem with that is there are still too many chiefs and not enough indians. Tribalism within the regions that the Kurds are in will always be their downfall. They cannot stop the infighting long enough to back a central figure. That's basically what the US presence was all about in the first place. Providing focus and keeping them engaged with the enemy rather than sparring each other.

Remember, these are a nomadic people. Same goes for other parts of the middle east to central Asia. Those types have a hard time with the concept of banding together and until that happens, you will continue to see political strife that stifles their growth.

Turkey Begins Military Campaign In Syria Three Days After U.S. Withdrawal
posted by Bill Galluccio - Oct 9, 2019



Turkey has begun a military operation in Northern Syria, just three days after President Donald Trump announced the U.S. military forces were pulling out of the region.

"The Turkish Armed Forces, together with the Syrian National Army, just launched Operation Peace Spring," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan tweeted. "Our mission is to prevent the creation of a terror corridor across our southern border, and to bring peace to the area."

Turkey considers the Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG) a terrorist group because they are affiliated with the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), which has been locked in a battle with Turkey for over three decades.

The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, a key U.S. ally in the fight against ISIS, says that Turkey is bombing civilian areas, forcing people to flee their homes. The SDF is warning that the attacks are creating an "impending humanitarian disaster" and asked world leaders to implement a no-fly zone over the area to keep Turkish warplanes from striking targets.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu defended the military operation, saying that Turkey's goal is to eliminate terror cells operating in the region.

"Region will be cleared of terrorists, Syria's border security and territorial integrity will be guaranteed, displaced people will be able to return safely to their homes, peace, and safety will prevail in the region," he tweeted.

Link

Pick it up at the 2:30 mark. Draw your own conclusions. 'Cause, hey, what do I know? I'm just a dumb ol' rube.



What a cesspool. Everyone over there is guilty. There is no correct course of action over there. The only correct course is for the US to GTFO ASAP.

"WE'RE ABANDONING OUR ALLIES!!!"

No, we're abandoning a garbage dump.

The video Para posted highlights exactly what is wrong with the entire region. There is no common ground for any of these groups to become a binding agent and lead to a successful peace. It's always gonna be "my religion vs your religion". When that isn't enough, it'll be "my tribe vs your tribe". It'll continue until they cease to exist. The Native American Indians are a perfect example of what happens when numerous groups cannot band together to fight a common enemy. The pettiness of it all is insurmountable. That's why there is no use for us to support anything in the region. Honestly, we shouldn't even be dealing with Turkey. Our technology has outgrown their usefulness to us as a staging area.

I have worked with the Kurds both in the military and as a civilian and I respect them highly both militarily and for their warmth and compassion....

but these endless wars have sapped our youth and coin and put us years behind our biggest enemy(s).

This focus on asymmetrical warfare should have been left for the snake eaters (and I am sure we will still have these guys there) while our conventional forces should have pivoted long ago to face china.

There will never be peace in this part of the world....much like africa and we need to let them sort it out. I hear people screaming ....what if russia builds bigger bases there....ok, what if they do? on no the Chinese are getting into 'stan....so what...let them chew on that buzzsaw for a bit

We need to pull back a bit and gain our strength.

I got this this morning from a friend who is not only a Turk, but a fellow gun-club member, famous in certain quarters for his scuba-diving exploits.

Tac - This morning, the western media is full of vitriolic attacks on the Turkish people, accusing them of unbridled aggression. This is not the case. Turkish “Bahar Baris” (Spring Peace) operation today has been building for years.

In 2011 Syria had domestic protests. Britain and America chose to interfere in the domestic affairs of Syria and helped to escalate a situation over which they had no control. They used Turkey as their surrogate. Turkish intelligence were instructed (by the west) to allow the stream of European fighters to cross the border and join various groups (including the Daesh) to fight the Syrian Government. Iran assisted Syria, and when things became dire, the Russians weighed in, and supported Syria. Turkey was very helpful to all the fighters in Syria who were fighting the Syrian government.

But the Daesh upset the west, with their successful takeover of half of Iraq, and their odd religious practices. The western powers realised their mistake in backing the Daesh and looked for an alternative. The alternative chosen, was the PKK, an internationally acknowledged terrorist group which purports to fight for a Kurdish state. The west realised that they could not back the PKK openly, so their marketing specialists suggested using the words YPG as an acceptable brand. The Turks were not happy, as they saw through the ploy. The west then renamed the Kurdish fighters the Syrian Democratic Forces. The SDF did not fight the Syrian Army, they fought, with limited success, the Daesh. The west’s creation was fighting the west’s creation. The situation was bizarre. The YPG were not very good at what they did and found themselves surrounded in Kobani. The Turkish state would not openly help them, but, after negotiation, transported hundreds of Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga to Kobane through Turkey to hold off Daesh. The Daesh were held off, but the west learned their lesson. Trainers were supplemented by marines, special forces and air power. Bizarrely, the Russians completely control the airspace over Syria , and so the western air forces (and the Turks) had to ask permission before completing any air mission. The Daesh were pushed back and destroyed with western air power, and western fighters, but many escaped into Turkey.

There is nothing democratic about the SDF/YPG. When they take over an area, they move out all the Sunni or Shia Arabs and allow only Kurdish people to remain. This ethnic re-orientation of Syria caused many of the refugees who escaped to Turkey.

A month ago, I was in Turkey, ten metres from the border with Syria. I spoke to many Turkish Kurds and Syrian Arab refugees. The Arabs wanted to go back to Syria, and the Turkish Kurds explained that the YPG was in charge of everything south of the town I was in, but that only Kobane was Kurdish. Yet when you look at a BBC map of Syria, you would think that 30% of Syria was Kurdish.

The support of the YPG/PKK by Britain and America in Syria was a mistake of the most catastrophic proportions. The Turkish people felt that their closest ally, the United States had dropped Turkey as was working with its enemy. The YPG/PKK used the weapons given them to fight the Turkish armed forces within Turkey and kill Turkish civilians. The US and UK did not care, they had found an ally and they had someone they could deal with. Turkey was, in the eyes of the west, unimportant.

In desperation, the Turkish government started to work with other Syrian non-Kurdish groups to establish a safe zone, guaranteed by Turkish troops and agreement with Russia. This worked well. When there were flare-ups, the Turks and the Russians defused the situation and Turkey disarmed many militants within the safe zone. Turkey has proved to be the only power within Syria who can successfully negotiate with Russia, Syria and Iran.

The Turkish government tried again and again to reconcile with the US/UK to cease supporting the YPG/PKK, but to no avail. Turkey was seen as a “bad boy” for wanting to be independent, not doing as it was told, and buying S400 missiles. President Erdogan may not be a model president, nor is he universally popular in Turkey, but every time he stands up for Turkey’s interests, his popularity rises.

The YPG/PKK could have made their peace with Turkey and continued to exploit the situation in Syria, but they made the mistake of attacking Turkey and poking their finger in the Turkish eye, thinking erroneously that they had indefinite western protection. When I asked a British official why Britain would support Turkey’s enemy so openly- the operative replied “that’s politics”. When I asked another official, they replied “The Turks are unimportant”. The sole voice of sanity was a retired officer who said that the UK’s support of the YPG/PKK was “absolute madness”.

I predicted that Turkey would take it for so long and then react badly.

“Turkey does not do ‘Counter-terror-lite’ “ I explained. “It will take it for so long and then react with a sledgehammer”.

The operatives and civil servants laughed it off and said that Turkey did not have the capability or the guts.

If I go back to my recent visit to the Syrian Frontier, the Syrian refugees all wanted to return to Syria. But there were no jobs, no development and not enough security. The border was open, they took permits from the Turkish Authorities and visited for Eid, but always returned to their camps or houses in Turkey. The only place where the Syrians did return to and stay, was the Turkish protected area in the north west of Syria.

President Erdogan is under pressure to find a long term solution to the Syrian Refugees in Turkey. If he can pull off a serious safe zone, that they can live in, and deal with and trade with Turkey, then he will have gone some way towards achieving that goal. If he can create a genuine buffer zone that secures the Turkish border so much the better. If the YPG/PKK fighters are wiped out in the process, then that will be by-catch. Contrary to western claims, there is no desire or intent in the heart of any Turksh person to hurt or destroy the Kurdish peoples. The Turkish people desire only to destroy those who take up arms against them.

In my opinion, the Turkish peacekeeping operation will continue for while, and then the YPG/PKK will come to an accommodation with the Turks. The safe zone will be created, many people of Syria will be able to return, and in the long run, operation Peaceful Spring will be a positive development.

If the above doesn't describe the very worst of US foreign policy, I don't know what does.

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
I do have to say that that was under the Shah, and can offer no information or opinion how it is there now.

So several lifetimes ago...

Hey, everyone over in the Middle East hate each other (and have for millennia).
Maybe they know something that we don't.
Let nature take its course. We cannot fix their hate for each other, and we shouldn't try to fix it. It's like trying to stop cows from eating grass. Or teach a puddle of water to "sit up and beg". Can't be done.
And......any one of the different groups will be our staunch ally, IF we help them kill the other groups. Ain't no trick to that. Kurds ain't nothing special.

Thanks for posting, tacfoley.

It's a mess that we couldn't fix.

Tony.

We didn't throw the Kurds to the wolves. They have always lived right there among them. The Kurds needed us as much as we needed them when they/we were fighting ISIS. ISIS would have likely ended them without our assistance. They have used us and we have used them. No one including the Kurds should be surprised by Trumps move as he has been crystal clear about what he was going to do since he took office.

Yeah I wish the Kurds well but I am more worried about Erdogan. I don't trust that guy and i actively worry about our forces based in Turkey. Turkey doesn't belong in NATO.