quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
Do you know who won't be negatively impacted by this?

Me....I live in NH, where we have NO Sales Tax! Live Free, or Die!

Curious from our esteemed legal minds, if SCOTUS is allowing states to cross lines to enforce and collect taxes, what else will be allowed now that SCOTUS has authorized states to be enforcers outside of their boundaries.

Will this open a can of worms where you find states with high taxes like CA, NY, IL who create internet retail compliance, and if you have a business that sells items to NY residents require that business to fill out an application for a license to sell in NY, obtain a tax ID, be subject to NY laws on all sales, subject to litigation in NY even though the business isn't domiciled in NY.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Curious from our esteemed legal minds, if SCOTUS is allowing states to cross lines to enforce and collect taxes, what else will be allowed now that SCOTUS has authorized states to be enforcers outside of their boundaries.

This is not a slippery slope such as you're suggesting.


What it is if you are making a purchase from an out of state retailer the retailer will collect tax from you based on your taxing criteria and then forward that to your state or county or however they currently do that.

Amazon already does it in CA and a number of other states too.

Your guns are safe.

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Curious from our esteemed legal minds, if SCOTUS is allowing states to cross lines to enforce and collect taxes, what else will be allowed now that SCOTUS has authorized states to be enforcers outside of their boundaries.

This is not a slippery slope such as you're suggesting.


What it is if you are making a purchase from an out of state retailer the retailer will collect tax from you based on your taxing criteria and then forward that to your state or county or however they currently do that.

Amazon already does it in CA and a number of other states too.

Your guns are safe.

However prior to this ruling any retailer doing this was doing so voluntarily, or, they had physical presence in the state in which the product was delivered and thus subject by law to collect sales taxes on sales delivered in that state.

On out of state purchases historically the laws in each state places the burden on the buyer/ recipient for collection and remission to the state of the resident.


This ruling makes merchants responsible for collecting taxes from sellers regardless of domicile. If you have a business in AZ, how will IL enforce it's tax collection laws on a non IL business. In the past they could not, will this allow IL to sue an AZ business in IL for tax evasion if they don't collect and submit.

Taxes are paid by consumers, not businesses, governments have made defacto tax collectors out of businesses but were restricted by state borders on enforcement...

It remains to be seen how IL would enforce it's laws on an AZ corporation/individual.

How nice of them to side step other issues, and rule as they did on this.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Curious from our esteemed legal minds, if SCOTUS is allowing states to cross lines to enforce and collect taxes, what else will be allowed now that SCOTUS has authorized states to be enforcers outside of their boundaries.

This is not a slippery slope such as you're suggesting.


What it is if you are making a purchase from an out of state retailer the retailer will collect tax from you based on your taxing criteria and then forward that to your state or county or however they currently do that.

Amazon already does it in CA and a number of other states too.

Your guns are safe.

However prior to this ruling any retailer doing this was doing so voluntarily, or, they had physical presence in the state in which the product was delivered and thus subject by law to collect sales taxes on sales delivered in that state.

On out of state purchases historically the laws in each state places the burden on the buyer/ recipient for collection and remission to the state of the resident.


This ruling makes merchants responsible for collecting taxes from sellers regardless of domicile. If you have a business in AZ, how will IL enforce it's tax collection laws on a non IL business. In the past they could not, will this allow IL to sue an AZ business in IL for tax evasion if they don't collect and submit.

Taxes are paid by consumers, not businesses, governments have made defacto tax collectors out of businesses but were restricted by state borders on enforcement...

It remains to be seen how IL would enforce it's laws on an AZ corporation/individual.

I agree with most but no everything you said.

If your state required you to report and pay for your out of state internet purchases and you didn't that doesn't change your tax obligation. The tax is owed by you but not being paid. No one self-reported themselves to the state tax board and never has.

Your tax obligation remains the same but now the merchant is going to collect it on your behalf. It's no different than you making an in-state purchase and the merchant collecting the tax you owe and paying it for you. There's no conceptual difference between that and today's ruling. Every time you shop in a store that collects a sales tax the business is collecting and paying it on your behalf. That's hardly a new or novel concept.

I imagine that the IT people will be very busy writing programs to determine the tax amount to collect to out of state buyers. All IL can do, as I see it at the moment, is accept the representation that the tax amount submitted on your behalf is correctb but I also suspect that since IL has just as much incentive as AZ to receive the appropriate tax revenue that neither state will attempt to game the system.

As a local retailer, I am happy to see the playing field leveled, and I pretty much agree with decision on a legal basis as well. Times have changed- the internet is the rule, not the exception. The old rulings requiring a physical presence in the state went back to a time when cross state purchases were the exception.

This is not the burden on business y’all seem to think it is. Computer is programmed with each jurisdiction’s sales tax rate, and spits out a report when its time to file. I have two locations, and two taxing jurisdictions. I print a report monthly and manually fill out four sales tax returns and cut two checks. It takes me about 20 minutes. That could be two days if I was selling in all 50 states, if I did it manually. I’m sure the more sophisticated programs can fill out the report, and submit the info and funds electronically.

Plus, I haven’t read the decision, but a news report I heard said that the ruling does not apply to smaller businesses, I think with less than 200 employees.

Quagmire alert: If they can levy sales taxes, then the can change the sales tax rate, and they can change the sales tax rate on internet purchase specifically to be different than the local sales tax rate.

jes'sayin'

quote:

Originally posted by honestlou:
As a local retailer, I am happy to see the playing field leveled, ...

If you've read any of the many threads discussing Internet purchasing vs. local you'd know state sales/use tax has little or nothing to do with most people's purchasing decisions.

For many people it's convenience. For others it's not having to drive fifty miles to the nearest store. For others, like me, it's mostly product availability. I go into a local store and find fifty bazillion varieties of <thing> I can find in any other store, but not a single one of <other thing>. "Oh, we can order that for you." Uhm... yeah, I can do that, too.

I'm not so sure you'll see the boost you hope you will from this decision.

In fact they may see the opposite reaction, such as consumers stating that if taxes are the same then it's, availability, price and cost of acquisition ie, gas, traffic time, etc.

I ordered some socks for PF last night, instead of driving to wally world, one of the big drug chains or a sports store just clicked on Amazon, found what I wanted, and ordered it for Friday free prime delivery...

No traffic, no left lane bandits, no lollygaggers, no high blood pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
In fact they may see the opposite reaction, such as consumers stating that if taxes are the same then it's, availability, price and cost of acquisition ie, gas, traffic time, etc.

I ordered some socks for PF last night, instead of driving to wally world, one of the big drug chains or a sports store just clicked on Amazon, found what I wanted, and ordered it for Friday free prime delivery...

No traffic, no left lane bandits, no lollygaggers, no high blood pressure.

Yes you are correct although there is a belief that brick and mortar stores can also be etailers just like Amazon. It seems to me that localities should be encouraging local stores to get into or stay competitive with the big boys otherwise, it's all going to be Amazaon, ebay or niche stores.

quote:

If you've read any of the many threads discussing Internet purchasing vs. local you'd know state sales/use tax has little or nothing to do with most people's purchasing decisions.

I disagree especially on high ticket items.
FWIW the break even is circa $700 or so and after that I become very particular in calculating that cost.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
... just clicked on Amazon, found what I wanted, and ordered it for Friday free prime delivery...

No traffic, no left lane bandits, no lollygaggers, no high blood pressure.

Yeah, except Amazon, ever since Trump leaned on them about them taking advantage of a loophole in their contract with USPS, has been mucking-about with shipping, again. Lately, here, it's been about 50/50 USPS/UPS. But on my order day-before-yesterday, they shipped it via their own shipping system.

Avoiding their own crappy shipping system was one reason we went with Prime in the first place. The order isn't here, yet. I won't be surprised if it doesn't arrive damn close to their "by 9 p.m." promise, because I just looked up where it's coming from: All the way on the other side of town. A 45 minute drive in non-rush-hour if you drove it straight through and the lights were with you.

USPS and USPS usually deliver by 4 p.m. Rarely later than 6 o'clock.

Increasingly likely we won't be renewing Prime. And that's ok. I'd rather give the business to local businesses, anyway. Dumping Prime will encourage me to do that.

And probably buy less, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
I disagree especially on high ticket items.

I'm just relating what I recall reading in comments from members here. Most of them have claimed tax figures little into their decisions. That's my impression/recollection, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
FWIW the break even is circa $700 or so and after that I become very particular in calculating that cost.

I don't think I've ever ordered anything even close to $700 from Amazon. I don't think I'd ever be likely to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
This is a direct result of people buying online and not paying the legally mandated use tax. Period. Tax money has been lost to the extent that those collecting it were motivated to do so.

Do you know who won't be negatively impacted by this? The life blood of your communities. Local brick and mortar operations. The same ones that have been paying their taxes while so many others attempted to game the system.

I've had this argument many, many times over the years. It's almost impossible to understand unless you work a small retail shop that depends almost 100% on local business, and you're competing with the equivalent of Wal-Mart online. Customers coming into your store to handle merchandise you've paid for, to see if they'd like it enough to order it online "tax-free."

I can see both sides of it, and I understand wanting to save a buck here or there. But when I had to go a couple weeks without pay because the store wasn't making any money, and a customer came into the store with a guitar he bought online, and wanted to have us set it up for him, after trying the one we had hanging on the wall for months, I politely invited him to figure it out himself. Vote with your wallet, but understand WHAT you're voting for.

If you ever went to a local retail store and finger-fucked the merchandise before you ordered it online, then I hope you're outraged and stressed out about this. It's your turn.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
This is a direct result of people buying online and not paying the legally mandated use tax. Period. Tax money has been lost to the extent that those collecting it were motivated to do so.

Do you know who won't be negatively impacted by this? The life blood of your communities. Local brick and mortar operations. The same ones that have been paying their taxes while so many others attempted to game the system.

I've had this argument many, many times over the years. It's almost impossible to understand unless you work a small retail shop that depends almost 100% on local business, and you're competing with the equivalent of Wal-Mart online. Customers coming into your store to handle merchandise you've paid for, to see if they'd like it enough to order it online "tax-free."

I can see both sides of it, and I understand wanting to save a buck here or there. But when I had to go a couple weeks without pay because the store wasn't making any money, and a customer came into the store with a guitar he bought online, and wanted to have us set it up for him, after trying the one we had hanging on the wall for months, I politely invited him to figure it out himself. Vote with your wallet, but understand WHAT you're voting for.

If you ever went to a local retail store and finger-fucked the merchandise before you ordered it online, then I hope you're outraged and stressed out about this. It's your turn.

What good is going to a local place and paying 2-3 times the price of an online retailer? I am not here to put money in your pocket, I am here to keep money in my pocket. It has never been about taxes for me when I purchase something online. Living in Virginia, our tax rate is between 5.3 and 6% depending on location. That, I will gladly pay. I will not however pay 200-300% for something that may, or may not be what I was looking for. It's about 30 minutes away for me to get any major shopping done. When you figure in the drive time, fuel, having to eat out, and all of the drama associated with being out in a bigger city on top of the higher retail prices, it is so much easier for me to do my shopping online. I sit here in my skivvies and order whatever I'd like and wait for the USPS or UPS to bring it to me. I let them deal with the texting idiots and shitty roads. Why put all that wear and tear on my vehicles just so I can pay for some local business owners $80,000+ car? Don't make sense to me.

Brick and mortar guys can complain all they want about how the internet killed their business but it's not true....Their very own business practices have killed their businesses. Adapt or get swallowed. Offer a better customer experience. Make me feel as if you want me in your store. Don't crowd the aisles with useless overpriced garbage. Don't allow shitbags to stand out in front of your place of business hounding me for money. Don't keep asking me for my phone number or zip code or what my morning shit looked like. Keep your parking lot presentable with lines that don't disappear after a heavy rain and clean that sumbitch once in a while. I can't stand looking at diapers, fast food bags, cigarette butts, and other trash. While we are at it, lets make sure that I don't have to smell an ashtray when I walk into your place of business.

Also, can anyone explain where these brick and mortar guys get their merchandise? I bet it wasn't local I bet they shopped around for the best deal that kept more money in their pockets, so why shouldn't I do the same?


Now, getting to the point of taxes and the collection of said taxes by online retailers: It has no bearing on how I will spend my money. It may or may not shut down some of the smaller seller operations that I get stuff from, but generally the prices offered online will still beat out the local retailers by quite a large margin. Net result, no change other than how much more money will go into the pockets of the politicians. Our schools will still be indoc centers. Our roads, bridges, and other infrastructure will still crumble beneath us.

quote:

What good is going to a local place and paying 2-3 times the price of an online retailer?

I don't shop online much, but when I do I'm not seeing 200% to 300% savings. But let me tell you what the good is to you.

I'm assuming you live somewhere with a police and fire department? Do they plow snow there? Have roads? Do you have any parks nearby?

The local business pays property tax. They employ local employees with the associated taxes. They then collect sales tax on sales.

So let's assume you just wipe out all of those people and switch to your online sales model. Where is all of that lost tax money going to come from? Starts with a Y and ends with a U.

Instead of my property taxes increasing to make up for lost revenue, I'd rather my neighbor pay sales tax when buying online. Instead of sales tax increasing for those who buy locally and pay it, I'd rather those who have avoided paying it do so when they buy online.

I'll go one even further. If I were in state government I would subpoena Amazon for a list of everything that everybody in my state ever purchased. I would cross reference that list to those who filed a use tax return. I would then collect back taxes, interest, and fines from those who "forgot".

I don't like big government. I don't like all of these rules and regulations. I don't like taxes. But I'll be damned if I have to jump through the hoops while everybody else expects a free ride.

quote:

Plus, I haven’t read the decision, but a news report I heard said that the ruling does not apply to smaller businesses, I think with less than 200 employees.

Which if true is BS. Taxes are either due or they're not. The number of employees you have makes no difference.

quote:

Now, getting to the point of taxes and the collection of said taxes by online retailers: It has no bearing on how I will spend my money. It may or may not shut down some of the smaller seller operations that I get stuff from, but generally the prices offered online will still beat out the local retailers by quite a large margin. Net result, no change other than how much more money will go into the pockets of the politicians. Our schools will still be indoc centers. Our roads, bridges, and other infrastructure will still crumble beneath us.

That sounds like a decent prediction.

More money will be paid in state/local taxes... but will it make a positive impact?
Will roads improve? Will schools improve?
Will other taxes be lowered?

Here in Missouri, at least in St. Louis, we have a very high sales tax rate. We also have a State income tax and the City of St. Louis has had it's own income tax since 1950.

The City of St. Louis' City earnings tax has caused people and businesses to flock to surrounding areas, or to leave Missouri altogether.

Meh...it will not make any difference. Physical retailers can't compete with the Amazon model.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
If you ever went to a local retail store and finger-fucked the merchandise before you ordered it online, then I hope you're outraged and stressed out about this. It's your turn.

What good is going to a local place and paying 2-3 times the price of an online retailer?

Please read the part I bolded and put in red, and try again.

quote:

Physical retailers can't compete with the Amazon model.

The world will be a better place once everything in provided by Amazon, Walmart, and Google.