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A $76,000 Monthly Pension: Why States and Cities Are Short on Cash Login/Join 
No double standards
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quote:
Originally posted by CoolRich59:...
Here in IL, teachers and school administrators are infamous for gaming the system. One trick is to not take any sick or vacation leave in their last year. This leave gets paid as a lump sum when they retire, is then considered compensation, and so is included in their pension calculation....


Such is very common, probably the norm, in public service in CA. There is a quip, "20-50-90 retirement", ie, work 20 years, turn 50 years old, retire at 90% of your highest three years earnings. And they game those three years so they often make more money every year in retirement, for 30 years, than they made working for 20 years.

And then the leaders in the public unions tell the workers to not believe the ugly rumors that there is a financial crisis pending re their retirement, such is a scare tactic of evil Repubs.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 29447 | Location: CA | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Corgis Rock
Picture of Icabod
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quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
Actually, Oregon should be able to cover all the pensions from the millions and millions promised from the taxing of so-called "legal" cannabis.

At least that's what we were lead to believe. What happened?


"Oregon collected a total of $108.6 million in state and local taxes between Jan. 4, 2016, and Aug. 31, 2017. The state put $9.56 million toward the Oregon Liquor Control Commission’s “start-up costs” for regulating the industry and toward the Department of Revenue's work to collect the taxes.

The rest was divvied up according to a formula spelled out by law: The state school fund gets 40 percent, or $34 million; mental health, alcoholism and drug services get 20 percent, or $17 million; Oregon State Police get 15 percent, or $12.75 million, and the Oregon Health Authority gets 5 percent, which comes to $4.25 million."
http://www.oregonlive.com/mari...85_million_in_1.html



“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams
 
Posts: 5338 | Location: Outside Seattle | Registered: November 29, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
:^)
Picture of BillyBonesNY
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Do note, that most pension funds are in debt due to heavy borrowing used to balance the state budgets.

A couple of States do not permit borrowing on the pension fund and are doing quite well.

IOU's don't compound interest and are removed from investment.


----------------------------------------
http://lonesurvivorfoundation.org
 
Posts: 6886 | Registered: March 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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The workers in my industry (union construction) have a pension.

I will never understand why someone is okay with a pension. I'd never take a job with one. I'd much rather have my money in my control and not subject to the decisions of others.

When I suggest converting from a pension to a 401k, they get all pissy. When their pension collapses someday, they'll be all surprised.

Allowing others to control your retirement and well being seems insane to me.

Most of these pensions are based on voodoo math. One plan I looked at recently presumed an 8.5% return with increasing man hours. The return has been closer to 6.5% and the man hours are shrinking. Yet, the members are all excited because they are "back" to 80% funded. It's a lie and they're lapping it up.

Anyone who understands knows this union is doomed, but they think they're "funded." This is why I don't have sympathy for failing pensions. These people choose their leaders and their representatives. If they lead you into dire economic circumstances, don't blame me and look to me for the money. I've been keeping my retirement on track.


E.S. Dunbar
________________________________
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
 
Posts: 6511 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
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quote:
Anyone who understands knows this union is doomed, but they think they're "funded." This is why I don't have sympathy for failing pensions. These people choose their leaders and their representatives. If they lead you into dire economic circumstances, don't blame me and look to me for the money.

Ah, but government pensions are even worse than private pensions. For these people (who choose their leaders and their representatives based on the lies they tell) WILL be looking to you for the money. For YOU are a TAXPAYER, the ultimate funding source for all of their unfunded empty promises.


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 15049 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
Anyone who understands knows this union is doomed, but they think they're "funded." This is why I don't have sympathy for failing pensions. These people choose their leaders and their representatives. If they lead you into dire economic circumstances, don't blame me and look to me for the money.

Ah, but government pensions are even worse than private pensions. For these people (who choose their leaders and their representatives based on the lies they tell) WILL be looking to you for the money. For YOU are a TAXPAYER, the ultimate funding source for all of their unfunded empty promises.


I just don't see it happening. I think the retirees will be left holding the bag.

The simple fact is that there just isn't enough money to fund all of the underfunded pensions. The only real solution is that the retirees are gonna take a hair cut.

Look at the legislation that was passed a few years back. Benefits to existing retirees can be cut down to 10% more than what the PBGC will pay a failed plan.

They did that because they knew the .gov couldn't afford it, so they are sticking the retirees. The same kind of thing will eventually happen to public pensions.

They are simply unsustainable. Saying "you promised" is great and all, but when the math clearly shows there isn't enough money, reality must take its effect.

There will be plenty of teeth gnashing and kicking the can down the road, but none of that will change the fact that pension benefits will be decreased.


E.S. Dunbar
________________________________
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
 
Posts: 6511 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
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quote:
There will be plenty of teeth gnashing and kicking the can down the road, but none of that will change the fact that pension benefits will be decreased.

... and the politicians who promise the benefits will continue to lie about it... until it happens. After all, these unfunded promises, all of them, are merely vote buying schemes for the socialists.


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 15049 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I believe ours is 90% after 20 years of your final pay. Whenever that is. I've been here 2 years, and in 3 more years I'm vested in the county for like 55 percent. I'm 24. I can retire with 90%, then come work AGAIN, still getting my 90%, along with a new paycheck, until i'm 62. Lucky, I'm also investing some of it, incase any of the above changes.


Used guns deserve a home too
 
Posts: 771 | Location: North Ga | Registered: August 06, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Enjoy Computer Living
Picture of LoungeChair
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quote:
Originally posted by Rey HRH:
For the 76,000 a month eye surgeon, I would want to know how it was calculated relative to his pay and years. Maybe eye surgeons make enough to justify the pension.

The problem I see is that no money is being set aside from the current budget to pay for future pensions. I understand it’s impossible if the current budget can’t even cover the current pension payouts but that’s the kernel of the problem.

He was the head of OHSU. That’s why he’s getting that huge pension.
Public pensions need to be capped. That guy was raking it in as the head of OHSU and he continues to rake it in after retirement. That’s nuts.



-Loungechair
 
Posts: 620 | Registered: October 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by bigwagon:
It's ridiculous that some of the jobs highlighted in the article are even eligible for a public pension, like the U of O head football coach. These guys are under contract making millions a year, with massive perks. That should not be a "state job" eligible for a pension.


A friend of mines mom was a part time crossing guard at a school for 7 years and she collects a pension.

It's pretty ridiculous. I am totally for it for EMT/FireFighters/Police who cannot be physically expected to work their jobs until retirement.

However, here anyone who works for the school system, county or whatever gets a pension as early as 7 years. At 20 years they get a full pension based on their last years income. SO, they totally game the system and work as much OT as possible, take no sick days, etc. and their pension checks end up being larger than their last paychecks.
 
Posts: 16579 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No double standards
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
Anyone who understands knows this union is doomed, but they think they're "funded." This is why I don't have sympathy for failing pensions. These people choose their leaders and their representatives. If they lead you into dire economic circumstances, don't blame me and look to me for the money.

Ah, but government pensions are even worse than private pensions. For these people (who choose their leaders and their representatives based on the lies they tell) WILL be looking to you for the money. For YOU are a TAXPAYER, the ultimate funding source for all of their unfunded empty promises.


I just don't see it happening. I think the retirees will be left holding the bag.

The simple fact is that there just isn't enough money to fund all of the underfunded pensions. The only real solution is that the retirees are gonna take a hair cut....


Agreed, there will not be enough money to pay the retirement promises, including social security. Seems to me there will be some combination of tax increases and benefit cuts. Trying to fill the deficit hole could include significant inflation. I can see battles between states and the feds, battles between public unions and gov't bosses, battles between taxpayers and tax collectors. Everyone will lose, except those who ride the public pension gravy train, until that train crashes.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 29447 | Location: CA | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
There is so much wrong in that article, I could spend an hour cutting, pasting, and addressing the comments.

These two stood out for me:

quote:
Because Evergreen cannot afford a physical education teacher, Tiffany Bonney’s first-grade class uses a video program called GoNoodle to exercise.

A PE teacher? In the first grade?

When I was in the first grade, physical education was called recess. Running, jumping, playing on the slide, monkey bars, merry-go-rounds, and swings, playing dodge ball, smear the queer, etc....

quote:
In San Francisco, the school board wants voters to approve a $298 “parcel tax” on real estate, ostensibly to raise $50 million to pay teachers a living wage.

A "living wage"? For teachers?

Deal! Give them all $15/hr and let's move on.

Liberals are perhaps finally learning what we all knew all along. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.


I'm right there with you on recess for kids in the first grade.

Completely lost in your concept of paying teachers in the poverty range. Do you simply hate teachers?

Regardless of what the university president's salary was, 76,000 is a lot of money on a monthly basis, far exceeding most people's yearly income. It's well enough to accord a percentage of monthly earnings prior to retirement, but if someone was earning such a large figure that 76 grand is a small percentage, then he should have socked away enough to retire. He had value as a working man; that value is diminished now that he's done working and others are supporting him; to pay him monthly in excess of most others annual wage is insane, especially from a government coffer.

Teachers on the other hand, provide a valuable service and have long been underpaid. Pay should be commensurate with local wage tables; expensive areas may require higher wages to live, and teachers shouldn't be expected to continue paying for classroom supplies such as paper. That's been very wrong, for a very long time.

Way too many entitlements out there. Seventy six grand is certainly high up on that list.
 
Posts: 2703 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
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quote:
Do you simply hate teachers?

That's an obnoxious question. I don't think anyone here hates teachers.
However, some of us think that education is too important to turn over to government, which provides lower-quality at higher prices.
Some of us believe in the market economy... whether for education, health care, or groceries. The free market matches buyers and sellers of goods and services and keeps prices down to what people are willing to pay.
We should privatize our socialist education system. It has nothing to do with hating teachers. Good teachers would be better off, and education would be less about indoctrination and would improve through competition.


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 15049 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No double standards
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chellim1:

I have mixed feelings in your comment above. I don't know if you just hit a home run, or a grand slam. Smile

But it is at least a double bullseye.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 29447 | Location: CA | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
Do you simply hate teachers?

That's an obnoxious question. I don't think anyone here hates teachers.
However, some of us think that education is too important to turn over to government, which provides lower-quality at higher prices.
Some of us believe in the market economy... whether for education, health care, or groceries. The free market matches buyers and sellers of goods and services and keeps prices down to what people are willing to pay.
We should privatize our socialist education system. It has nothing to do with hating teachers. Good teachers would be better off, and education would be less about indoctrination and would improve through competition.


I was referring to the flat 15.00 hourly wage for teachers.

Today the education system has a lot of options and could certainly be better run, presented, organized, etc. A wild mix of online, private, public, and other educational options exist locally, but there is no correlation between them. With the move to more online involvement by youth today, there's no good reason why this can't be a growing part of many school's accepted credits.

I insisted all my kids went to public school. Private institutions were prohibitively expensive, but there was a notable difference in the ability of those we knew who were attending private schools, in terms of the ability to socialize and interact with others. I didn't want my kids growing up only interacting with privileged kids...which is all that attends private around here. I wanted them interacting as normal people on a normal playing field, and so they have.

My kids left high school to go in all directions, from college to the military to other avenues. The local public high school, one of the lowest funded in the state, and consequently one of the lowest funded in the nation, has a fairly high benchmark for success; considerable scholarships get awarded. The Jr. ROTC program produces some very good cadets who end up going to various academies, scholarships, etc. Some of the athletes do well. My oldest boy finished his high school time as the commander of his ROTC unit, then went USMC.

The local teaching staff has been very good, from the music programs through industrial such as the welding program that one of my boys embraced. A multi-district program allows students to complete certifications in various disciplines such as nursing, welding, etc. There's even an aviation program; a lot of things that didn't exist where I went to school. All this in spite of budget shortfalls that have forced the closure of three schools in the area, with crowded classrooms, a four-day school week, and the curtailing of many activities.

The teachers here work hard, and they invest a lot of unpaid hours in the student's progress. I just got an email from a teacher running an AP program who does weekly weekend study sessions for those interested. She does it on her own time, no her own dime, like many out there. I don't think any of them are demanding a silver spoon, but they're qualified professionals doing a necessary job, a service, and one that ought to be compensated better than it is.

A fifteen dollar an hour flat wage is an insult. It's also not a livable wage in most places. For teachers with a degree and experience, it's no incentive, and no level of compensation.
 
Posts: 2703 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor
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quote:
New Jersey’s pension fund is $124 BILLION in debt.


Do you wonder why? For many years, it stood at 105 percent and over. Then the republican Gov., Christie Whitman decided to use it as a piggy bank because is was so over funded.

Democrat Governor Jim Florio was the first to use the pension fund as a fall-back piggy bank in a time of crisis, Save Jerseyans.

In 1992, facing a budget shortfall, Florio pushed through the Pension Revaluation Act with unanimous support in the legislature, reducing taxpayer contributions to the public retirement plans by $1.5 billion.

This scheme was accomplished through the financial deception of introducing a more optimistic method of evaluating pension system investments. The end result was to make the retirement plans’ finances “look far rosier” than they really were, by lifting the projected rate of return on the fund’s investments to 8.75% from 7%.

Then in later years , the democrats decided they wouldn't put in their required contributions because of the same reasoning. then when the economy turned south, they used the reasoning that they didn't have the money. yet they had more than enough to fund all of the entitlements going to the cities. now they are claiming to be a sanctuary city. money for illegals is available apparently.

Lawsuits to force the required payments have been filed over the years. NHJ public employees gave back under Christie more than once. the benefits were cut and their required payments went up.

NJ has eight separate systems. The teachers system was the worst off because they refused to up their portion of the payments unlike the others.

New Jersey Consolidated Police and Firemen Pension Fund
New Jersey Police and Firemen's Retirement System
New Jersey Prison Officers Pension Fund
New Jersey Public Employees Retirement System
New Jersey State Police Retirement System
New Jersey Teachers Pension Annuity Fund
New Jersey State Judiciary Retirement Fund
State of New Jersey Cash Management Fund

The NJ state Police has a mandatory 55 age limit that they have been trying to overturn unsuccessfully for years. But the Teacher's union also donated 32 million to political campaigns buying a lot of politicians. a lot more than the NRA that they accuse of doing.

http://www.aei.org/publication...and-benefits-crisis/

Police and fire system was in the best shape. Unlike the first comment, they never had overtime or any off duty jobs factored into their payments. They don't get any cost of living adjustments.


Richard Scalzo
Epping, NH

http://www.bigeastakitarescue.net
 
Posts: 4987 | Location: Epping, NH | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
Picture of Gustofer
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quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
Do you simply hate teachers?

That's an obnoxious question.

Yes, it is. Right up there with "When did you stop beating your wife?"

And, no, I don't hate teachers, I hate leftists. I am also sick and tired of said leftists co-opting language with nebulous terms such as a "living wage", or "comprehensive immigration reform", or "common sense gun control". These terms, deliberately, have no objective meaning. They mean whatever the leftists want them to mean on any given day for any given purpose.

So, for months or even years now, we've heard that $15/hr is a "living wage". OK. If it's a "living wage for someone flipping burgers, then it is also "living wage" for a teacher...or anyone else for that matter. They asked for it? They got it.


quote:
...but they're qualified professionals doing a necessary job, a service, and one that ought to be compensated better than it is.

How many of them didn't know what the job paid when they chose it as a profession?


________________________________________________________

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 15368 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:

And, no, I don't hate teachers, I hate leftists. I am also sick and tired of said leftists co-opting language with nebulous terms such as a "living wage", or "comprehensive immigration reform", or "common sense gun control". These terms, deliberately, have no objective meaning. They mean whatever the leftists want them to mean on any given day for any given purpose.

So, for months or even years now, we've heard that $15/hr is a "living wage". OK. If it's a "living wage for someone flipping burgers, then it is also "living wage" for a teacher...or anyone else for that matter. They asked for it? They got it.


I don't believe I've ever heard teachers seek a fifteen dollar an hour wage.

It's not leftist to seek a livable wage, and yes, there is such a thing. Teachers aren't asking for a hand-out or a dole; they're asking for better pay for a job that is not only done 40 hours a week, but often 60 hours a week for 40 hours substandard pay.

Teaching isn't a leftist activity. It's a job, and is not on par with working at McDonalds, and shouldn't be paid that way.
 
Posts: 2703 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The simple fact is that there just isn't enough money to fund all of the underfunded pensions. The only real solution is that the retirees are gonna take a hair cut. (ESDUNBAR)



At the bottom this is the problem; there is no rational solution. To repeat; There is no practical way to collect enough money to meet the past political commitments made.

We have batted this situation around in many previous posts and certainly many different pension programs have different problems. However, there is simply no way that a pension fund can be established which will pay large groups of people ever increasing benefits but with historically low contributions.

The taxpayers are not going to tolerate the elimination of current services to pay pensions for those retired.
No, they will not care about promises made. The promises are mostly are made by politicians who intend that the taxpayer never really understands the future consequences of the promises.

Yes, judges in some places say that these promises must be kept (strangely, pensions for the judges are essentially part of the system). However, if there is not enough money, and there is not, pensions will be reduced.

Most public pension systems are classic Ponzi schemes, current pensions are being paid by current contributions. So when the number of pensioners and the cost of pensions increase, the numbers of contributors and contributions must as well and this is not happening.

Public Employee pensions are essentially the only ones still using this Ponzi scheme (defined benefit), almost all other employees now use defined contribution systems.

Many of us here on the Forum had promises made by our private employers, in many cases these promises were not kept. Why? There was not enough money.
Bankruptcy and insolvency are the final answers to the question of whether promises will be kept.
 
Posts: 3794 | Location: Citrus County Florida | Registered: October 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No double standards
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quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:....I don't believe I've ever heard teachers seek a fifteen dollar an hour wage.

It's not leftist to seek a livable wage, and yes, there is such a thing. Teachers aren't asking for a hand-out or a dole; they're asking for better pay for a job that is not only done 40 hours a week, but often 60 hours a week for 40 hours substandard pay.

Teaching isn't a leftist activity. It's a job, and is not on par with working at McDonalds, and shouldn't be paid that way.


I am guessing you don't live in California. (I teach in college here).

We just had a school board member tell us that $70K a year (excluding benefits) is not enough for a public school teacher (K-12). And the first hiring criteria here is diversity, not skill. And non leftist full time teachers don't last very long in most public education around here.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 29447 | Location: CA | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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