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Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.



Do you have a good cite for this?

I mean no attack on you, but this sounds like a bit of "lore" that someone says, and then get passed on with no real knowledge of whether it is true or not.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 46702 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.



Do you have a good cite for this?

I mean no attack on you, but this sounds like a bit of "lore" that someone says, and then get passed on with no real knowledge of whether it is true or not.


Unfortunately It is not lore I have been on scene for at least 20 people (some on multiple occasions) brought back by Narcan and administered narcan 5 times myself in the last year alone likely 20+ more who did not need narcan but were overdosing, they call it The Nods, and 10 or so DOAs from heroin.

I have had them look me in the face when I ask who is distributing it and they say the won’t tell because they are going to go get more.
Tried the scare tactic of letting them know of the deaths and they look you straight in the face and say that is the stuff they want.

As for the danger inhalation as it can be a very fine powder is likely the most dangerous for incidental contact. The second being if you have open wounds on your skin.
Winter I wear gloves pretty much all the time because no matter how much hand cream I use my hands are constantly chapped.


--------------------------------------
When I die put my ashes in the trash bag I don't care where they go. Don't waste your money on my gravestone; I'm more concerned about my soul. Everybody is going to die but don't everybody live though. Sometimes I look up to the sky and wonder do you see us down here Oh, Lord?
NF

Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
Soren Kierkegaard
 
Posts: 19747 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Cynic
Picture of charlie12
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My girlfriend does Stat medicine deliveries. I've wondered about some of these drugs we deliver. Sometimes it's written on the package sometimes not. I've wondered if a K9 could smell any of it like the next day when I was driving my truck.


_______________________________________________________
And no, junior not being able to hold still for 5 seconds is not a disability.



 
Posts: 12214 | Location: Pride, Louisiana | Registered: August 14, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raised Hands Surround Us
Three Nails To Protect Us
Picture of Black92LX
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by charlie12:
My girlfriend does Stat medicine deliveries. I've wondered about some of these drugs we deliver. Sometimes it's written on the package sometimes not. I've wondered if a K9 could smell any of it like the next day when I was driving my truck.


Most places will not train their dogs to smell for any legal drug even if it is frequently illegally used.
Would cause way too many 4th amendment issues for those that are legally prescribed the meds.


--------------------------------------
When I die put my ashes in the trash bag I don't care where they go. Don't waste your money on my gravestone; I'm more concerned about my soul. Everybody is going to die but don't everybody live though. Sometimes I look up to the sky and wonder do you see us down here Oh, Lord?
NF

Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
Soren Kierkegaard
 
Posts: 19747 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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Black, thank you. I had heard it through news reports (I have no reason to know this first hand.) I was going to start digging for one of these to post. But your experience is better.

quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.



Do you have a good cite for this?

I mean no attack on you, but this sounds like a bit of "lore" that someone says, and then get passed on with no real knowledge of whether it is true or not.


Unfortunately It is not lore I have been on scene for at least 20 people (some on multiple occasions) brought back by Narcan and administered narcan 5 times myself in the last year alone likely 20+ more who did not need narcan but were overdosing, they call it The Nods, and 10 or so DOAs from heroin.

I have had them look me in the face when I ask who is distributing it and they say the won’t tell because they are going to go get more.
Tried the scare tactic of letting them know of the deaths and they look you straight in the face and say that is the stuff they want.

As for the danger inhalation as it can be a very fine powder is likely the most dangerous for incidental contact. The second being if you have open wounds on your skin.
Winter I wear gloves pretty much all the time because no matter how much hand cream I use my hands are constantly chapped.
 
Posts: 18403 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.



Do you have a good cite for this?

I mean no attack on you, but this sounds like a bit of "lore" that someone says, and then get passed on with no real knowledge of whether it is true or not.


Unfortunately It is not lore I have been on scene for at least 20 people (some on multiple occasions) brought back by Narcan and administered narcan 5 times myself in the last year alone likely 20+ more who did not need narcan but were overdosing, they call it The Nods, and 10 or so DOAs from heroin.

I have had them look me in the face when I ask who is distributing it and they say the won’t tell because they are going to go get more.
Tried the scare tactic of letting them know of the deaths and they look you straight in the face and say that is the stuff they want.



I understand there are overdoses. My question was about the part about dealers deliberately selling a fatal dose to convince other buyers that their dope is stronger.

Your experience supports the claim that junkies want the strongest dope, but that only makes sense. Of course they do.

It is the deliberate strengthening to fatal I am curious about.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 46702 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raised Hands Surround Us
Three Nails To Protect Us
Picture of Black92LX
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.



Do you have a good cite for this?

I mean no attack on you, but this sounds like a bit of "lore" that someone says, and then get passed on with no real knowledge of whether it is true or not.


Unfortunately It is not lore I have been on scene for at least 20 people (some on multiple occasions) brought back by Narcan and administered narcan 5 times myself in the last year alone likely 20+ more who did not need narcan but were overdosing, they call it The Nods, and 10 or so DOAs from heroin.

I have had them look me in the face when I ask who is distributing it and they say the won’t tell because they are going to go get more.
Tried the scare tactic of letting them know of the deaths and they look you straight in the face and say that is the stuff they want.



I understand there are overdoses. My question was about the part about dealers deliberately selling a fatal dose to convince other buyers that their dope is stronger.

Your experience supports the claim that junkies want the strongest dope, but that only makes sense. Of course they do.

It is the deliberate strengthening to fatal I am curious about.


Essentially yes. They make/sell the product that people want. There is not a line in the sand in regard to fatal/nonfatal does. Folks certainly build up a tolerance.
When narcan first became common place a single nasal dose which is 4mg would bring pretty much anyone back. Now we are commonly using 5 plus nasal doses to bring people back and others have gone to the point only IV doses will bring them back. Because it is two fold the batches are stronger because the users have built that tolerance and demand those higher batches or they don’t get the high.
So at least here we are seeing very strong batches to be the common place and will almost certainly kill a first time or new user when injected.

So while they may not exactly say I am going to make/sell a fatal batch we are at the point the weak stuff does not sell. So of course they are going to make their batches to meet the needs of the best customers which have built that tolerance so the batches must get stronger and stronger which leads to higher lethality.


--------------------------------------
When I die put my ashes in the trash bag I don't care where they go. Don't waste your money on my gravestone; I'm more concerned about my soul. Everybody is going to die but don't everybody live though. Sometimes I look up to the sky and wonder do you see us down here Oh, Lord?
NF

Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
Soren Kierkegaard
 
Posts: 19747 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Regarding wearing gloves when handling these drugs or anything at a scene: it's very valid and I'd submit that one is better off double-gloving.

Certainly there are respiratory threats. Many drug locations offer more than one drug. Clandestine labs contain incredibly hazardous materials, from newspaper filtration garbage bags (death bags) to explosive flasks, to numerous hazardous materials ranging from formaldehyde to gasoline to various acids. Every effort should be made to avoid touching them or getting them on skin.

The hands have fairly low absorption rates at the fingers; more in the palms and the back of the skin, much higher at the wrists. Washing hands removes protective oils and increases absorption. Contaminates can easily be transferred to mucus membranes by touching the face, however, gloves or not, and any open paths in the skin on the hands should be covered (sores, cuts, etc). Wearing gloves is a reasonable precaution.

This is to say nothing of the diseases and blood borne pathogens that may be present where drugs are used, injected, etc, and the biological and hazamat threats that are part of a lot of drug use in general.
 
Posts: 2731 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
34" Scale 5-String
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After reading all of this, all I can do is shake my head in disbelief that anyone would dare start using the stuff to begin with!!! Eek


Bill R.
North Alabama
 
Posts: 3299 | Location: Madison, AL | Registered: December 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Corgis Rock
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There’s a Internet claim going around that fentanyl gets transferee to shopping cart handles. Unless you use the store provided wipes, you could get an overdose. As with most such claims it’s wrong.
Someone used an FBI manual netted for law enforcement that listed preventive measures to take. Thst then jumped to the shopping cart handles.
Apparently, in theory, one could maybe pick up the drug from and object, then pick your nose or rub your eye. The wet mucus there would get the drug into the body.



“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams
 
Posts: 5339 | Location: Outside Seattle | Registered: November 29, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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When I was a street cop, I worked the district that had the most heroin and fentanyl in the area. I used narcan more times than I could count with surprising results. I was never personally contaminated with fentanyl, but other officers in my district were. We had a female officer fall out after putting an overdose victim's purse in the back of her SUV. She was able to get on the air and mumble that she needed help before going out completely. She was hospitalized for a couple of days. This stuff can be as dangerous as they say it can be, but isn't always. For example, another officer took a large Tupperware container of fentanyl off a guy and did not initially have gloves or ppe on when he found it. He was completely unaffected.
 
Posts: 294 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.



Do you have a good cite for this?

I mean no attack on you, but this sounds like a bit of "lore" that someone says, and then get passed on with no real knowledge of whether it is true or not.


Totally true and 100% correct. Witnessed this first hand in spring 2005, my last stint in Narcotics. One of the first Fentnal/ heroin incidents out there, and the first in Chicago.


https://www.chicagotribune.com...602070236-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com...606220151-story.html

We had 25 or 30 overdoses the first day, a couple fatal. I personally watched a few people "say 'hi' to Jesus" that day. Most of the people were from that area, or were regulars to the Dearborn Homes.
Some dumbfuck from the CPD Media Affairs decided to give the information to the local news. News put this out on tv & news radio...

And guess what happened?

Day 2, about 70 overdoses, I forget how many "went to go meet Jesus". The Chicago Fire Department was scared they were going to run out of Narcan that day. The Mickey Cobras, the gang that was responsible for the sale of the Fentnal laced heroin, changed the name of the "lines" that day to "death sentence", "executioner", "lethal injection" and "drop dead". The majority of the people that OD'd weren't from that area, they were from the western suburbs, north side of the city, Indiana, and a few from southern Wisconsin.

While this was going on..."someone" from Narcotics (NAGIS at the time) called Media Affairs and told them to "get their house-mouse asses out on the street and be the police you took the job to be" and something about a "high, hearty fuck you for making our jobs harder". It was a funny conversation at the time to listen to.

The DEA and the CPD were in the middle of a long term investigation (Operation Snakebite) in that area of the Dearborns. The funny thing is, the Mickey Cobras controlled the 8 buildings on the south end of the projects, roughly 2 blocks by 2 blocks of real estate in the city, probably netting $25,000 a day in tax free drug revenue. During the week or so after the Fentnal laced heroin came out, the profits almost doubled.
IIRC, about 32 were arrested from the Mickey Cobras, (one from the CPD as well. That bitch was sleeping with the #2 Mickey Cobras) all charged federally.

That was a fun couple of weeks to be in Narcotics!


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 5319 | Location: Just moved: Downtown Chi-Town | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'll agree that it seems to come in spurts. We'll go a few weeks without seeing any ods, and then we'll have a week where we have several per night. I'm not sure if the "bad batch" is being mixed that way intentionally, or if someone screws up, but it sure doesn't stop the junkies. We had one OD twice in one night a while back.

We're also seeing the need for multiple doses of narcan to get people back. The last one I had took three...and they only issue me one. If backup hadn't got there when they did, he'd probably be dead. And of course the ungrateful asshole tried to fight with us after he woke up, too.
 
Posts: 2914 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
In the yahd, not too
fah from the cah
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That's why we only give them enough to get them breathing again. That way they won't die on you, and you avoid both them fighting and other symptoms associated with a rapid removal of their high.

Remember, opiods kill because they depress the respiratory drive, causing the brain to become hypoxic. When the brain is hypoxic, it turns stupid (or stupider than it already was). This is why a lot of people fight when they are narcaned. Not necessarily because they're pissed about their high being ruined, but because they don't have enough oxygen in their brain.




 
Posts: 5600 | Location: Metro West, MA | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:


I understand there are overdoses. My question was about the part about dealers deliberately selling a fatal dose to convince other buyers that their dope is stronger.

Your experience supports the claim that junkies want the strongest dope, but that only makes sense. Of course they do.

It is the deliberate strengthening to fatal I am curious about.



There's a few things you need to know when dealing with this shit:

In the "Sidewalk Pharmaceutical Sales" Industry, none of these people have a Ph.D. in chemistry or medicine. They are literally mixing this shit up on a kitchen table, coffee table, dresser... It's not like this shit is regulated by the FDA.

It is quite literally, "about a cup of 'A', about a cup of 'B'"
"Yo, homie, we out of "B'!"
"Uuuhhhh, use some of this shit, it might work."

It's not like the dealers take an oath, or actually give a damn about the "customer" they are selling to. They care about profit margin, that's it (And not getting caught). What's the biggest "BANG" for the least amount of "Buck" they can get. In this perverse world, a few dead junkies are actually good for business. It's not "intentional", it's just "shit happens" when it comes to that world.

Junkies have different tolerances for heroin. What may kill me, might get you really high, and someone else just high. It's not like the dealers intended to put out doses to "kill" junkies, they just want to put out a cheap, strong product. A dead junkie is just part of the cost of doing business, and, at times, good advertising.


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 5319 | Location: Just moved: Downtown Chi-Town | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:


I understand there are overdoses. My question was about the part about dealers deliberately selling a fatal dose to convince other buyers that their dope is stronger.

Your experience supports the claim that junkies want the strongest dope, but that only makes sense. Of course they do.

It is the deliberate strengthening to fatal I am curious about.



There's a few things you need to know when dealing with this shit:

In the "Sidewalk Pharmaceutical Sales" Industry, none of these people have a Ph.D. in chemistry or medicine. They are literally mixing this shit up on a kitchen table, coffee table, dresser... It's not like this shit is regulated by the FDA.

It is quite literally, "about a cup of 'A', about a cup of 'B'"
"Yo, homie, we out of "B'!"
"Uuuhhhh, use some of this shit, it might work."

It's not like the dealers take an oath, or actually give a damn about the "customer" they are selling to. They care about profit margin, that's it (And not getting caught). What's the biggest "BANG" for the least amount of "Buck" they can get. In this perverse world, a few dead junkies are actually good for business. It's not "intentional", it's just "shit happens" when it comes to that world.

Junkies have different tolerances for heroin. What may kill me, might get you really high, and someone else just high. It's not like the dealers intended to put out doses to "kill" junkies, they just want to put out a cheap, strong product. A dead junkie is just part of the cost of doing business, and, at times, good advertising.


OR that they're really paying attention to how well they're mixing it all together.....the cut and the real product.....I think the reason some are dieing and some are getting a really good high is the simple fact that where on the dirty table they're mixing it from and what goes in each bag. The Fentanyl is such strong concentrated stuff, that a few extra granules in one bag compared to another bag is all it takes.


I know in the cocaine business.....a lot of dealers will put more cut into the occasional buyers or less serious users stuff, and less cut in the people that are addicted and buying from them everyday and know the difference of how strong it is.
 
Posts: 16608 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
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Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Junkies have different tolerances for heroin. What may kill me, might get you really high, and someone else just high. It's not like the dealers intended to put out doses to "kill" junkies, they just want to put out a cheap, strong product. A dead junkie is just part of the cost of doing business, and, at times, good advertising.


It was the "intentional" part I question. What you say about carelessness makes sense.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 46702 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Junkies have different tolerances for heroin. What may kill me, might get you really high, and someone else just high. It's not like the dealers intended to put out doses to "kill" junkies, they just want to put out a cheap, strong product. A dead junkie is just part of the cost of doing business, and, at times, good advertising.


It was the "intentional" part I question. What you say about carelessness makes sense.


It's not "intentional" or even "carelessness" as in "accidental". It's pretty much not caring, and (for lack of a better phrase) good business sense.
How much bang for the buck can they get out of cutting their product.


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 5319 | Location: Just moved: Downtown Chi-Town | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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