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Fentanyl: A Question for LEOs and/or Medical Professionals... Login/Join 
34" Scale 5-String
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posted
Having heard numerous news reports about how dangerous and deadly the stuff is, and just last night a news story from a local police department now using fentanyl-proof nitrile gloves for all investigative work, I just gotta ask....

If the stuff is that danged dangerous and/or deadly that simple contact could kill an LEO such that they have to wear special protective gloves, HOW can anyone use it as a recreational drug and not kill themselves 100% of the time... or at least 75-80% of the time??? It certainly seems it would require a medical professional to administer it properly to not kill the recipient if it's THAT powerful; so how does ANYONE use it recreationally and get by with it?


Bill R.
North Alabama
 
Posts: 3299 | Location: Madison, AL | Registered: December 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
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I have posted about this before including news articles written by medical experts. You always hear about people being hospitalized for exposure because they "overdosed", but you never see them report that lab results confirmed that they had drugs in their system.

While I certainly believe it is possible I don't believe it's nearly the threat many make it out to be.


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Posts: 13242 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The junkies are getting it mixed in with the heroin they are buying. The fentanyl is laced in with the heroin. Not an exact science so a "strong" batch hits the street and the junkies shoot up their normal dose and OD.


Straight shootin!
dusty
 
Posts: 3563 | Location: Fayette County, TN | Registered: August 13, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
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quote:
Originally posted by bronicabill:
If the stuff is that danged dangerous and/or deadly that simple contact could kill an LEO such that they have to wear special protective gloves, HOW can anyone use it as a recreational drug and not kill themselves 100% of the time... or at least 75-80% of the time??? It certainly seems it would require a medical professional to administer it properly to not kill the recipient if it's THAT powerful; so how does ANYONE use it recreationally and get by with it?


Some do overdose.

But opiate users' bodies develop a tolerance. They can handle a higher dosage of opiates than a non-user, without the same effects.

Much like a chronic alcoholic who can drink three times as much as a normal person, and still be relatively functional.

You even see this effect among legal prescription opiate users with chronic pain or long-term illnesses. They same old dosage of painkillers just doesn't cut it anymore, since their body has developed a tolerance, and they have to switch to higher doses or stronger concentrations to achieve the same pain relief.
 
Posts: 21655 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My younger son told me that 5 members of his AA group have died of OD this year . Some committed suicide, some just relapsed. He said fentanyl was involved.


Near the ocean
 
Posts: 1751 | Location: CTZ Florida | Registered: February 03, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Rail-less
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It’s not. I have spilled fentanyl (liquid injectible solution) on my self before with no issues. As for tolerance and drug use the life expectancy in this county has gone down which is unheard of in the developed world due to suicide and drug overdose deaths. People are starting to push the envelope on how much and what the shoot up. However you would be surprised the tolerance some people who use opiates every day can acquire. I’m talking about little old ladies that can take enough morphine and dilauded to kill an NFL offensive line.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dusty78,


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Posts: 12825 | Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: May 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
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Narcotics are not easily absorbed through the skin. Fentanyl patches have other agents that allow absorption.

So, cops do not need gloves to touch fentanyl. Any small amounts that get into the air will not kill you or even make you high. They are being alarmists.

As noted, it is dangerous to users because it is so much more potent than other narcotics that when it is present in unknown amounts in heroin (or whatever) that a small miscalculation can give you more than you can handle. But those users are snorting it or shooting it up.

https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/a...bsorbed-through-skin




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 46702 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
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I imagine that a lot of these police or ems exposures were due to someone putting their hands to their mouths inadvertently...

the stuff can't be absorbed thru your skin, which is why the fentynal patches have a chemical that helps it be introduced thru the skin.



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

 
Posts: 5529 | Location: Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Numbers vary a bit, but the lethal dose of fentanyl in people who haven't developed a tolerance is usually quoted as something like 2 milligrams.

That is a tiny, tiny amount.
 
Posts: 4444 | Location: TX | Registered: January 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
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I've received fentanyl based IV anesthesia on several occasions for various medical procedures and neither myself or those treating me had any ill effects or developed any addiction.

It can be used safely and effectively when administered and monitored by medical professionals with training.

quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
quote:
Originally posted by bronicabill:
If the stuff is that danged dangerous and/or deadly that simple contact could kill an LEO such that they have to wear special protective gloves, HOW can anyone use it as a recreational drug and not kill themselves 100% of the time... or at least 75-80% of the time??? It certainly seems it would require a medical professional to administer it properly to not kill the recipient if it's THAT powerful; so how does ANYONE use it recreationally and get by with it?


Some do overdose.

But opiate users' bodies develop a tolerance. They can handle a higher dosage of opiates than a non-user, without the same effects.

Much like a chronic alcoholic who can drink three times as much as a normal person, and still be relatively functional.

You even see this effect among legal prescription opiate users with chronic pain or long-term illnesses. They same old dosage of painkillers just doesn't cut it anymore, since their body has developed a tolerance, and they have to switch to higher doses or stronger concentrations to achieve the same pain relief.


During one of his lengthy hospital stays my father developed a tolerance for some of the opioid based pain meds he was receiving, which caused the doctors to change dosing and try different combinations of drugs.

There was never any talk of his developing an addiction to the pain meds but there is no doubt that their ability to relieve his pain diminished with use.
 
Posts: 4140 | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Something wild
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quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
Numbers vary a bit, but the lethal dose of fentanyl in people who haven't developed a tolerance is usually quoted as something like 2 milligrams.

That is a tiny, tiny amount.


Fentanyl is a powerful analgesic, but the LD50 (the dose causing death of 50% of test animals) is 62 mg/kg as a bolus - in a 100 kg man that's 620 mg. Acetyl fentanyl (not approved for medical use), increasingly finding it's way into the drug pool, is 9.3 mg/kg. Hence the problem, but still a significant, not microscopic dose. OD likely occurs when the user miscalculates or doesn't realize what drug he/she is using.



"And gentlemen in England now abed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's Day"
 
Posts: 2049 | Location: The Shire | Registered: October 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc H.:
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
Numbers vary a bit, but the lethal dose of fentanyl in people who haven't developed a tolerance is usually quoted as something like 2 milligrams.

That is a tiny, tiny amount.


Fentanyl is a powerful analgesic, but the LD50 (the dose causing death of 50% of test animals) is 62 mg/kg - in a 100 kg man that's 620 mg. Acetyl fentanyl (not approved for medical use), increasingly finding it's way into the drug pool, is 9.3 mg/kg. Hence the problem, but still a significant, not microscopic dose. OD likely occurs when the user miscalculates or doesn't realize what drug he/she is using.


One reference I checked listed LD50 as 3 mg/kg in rats and 0.03 mg/kg in monkeys. The 0.03 mg/kg results in an LD50 of 2-3 mg for the mass of a normal human adult.

I saw the general "lethal dose" for humans listed as 2mg a number of places.

This image is from a DEA page where it is captioned with "photo illustration of 2 milligrams of fentanyl, a lethal dose in most people":



https://www.dea.gov/galleries/drug-images/fentanyl
 
Posts: 4444 | Location: TX | Registered: January 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Something wild
is loose
Picture of Doc H.
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc H.:
quote:
Originally posted by maladat:
Numbers vary a bit, but the lethal dose of fentanyl in people who haven't developed a tolerance is usually quoted as something like 2 milligrams.

That is a tiny, tiny amount.


Fentanyl is a powerful analgesic, but the LD50 (the dose causing death of 50% of test animals) is 62 mg/kg - in a 100 kg man that's 620 mg. Acetyl fentanyl (not approved for medical use), increasingly finding it's way into the drug pool, is 9.3 mg/kg. Hence the problem, but still a significant, not microscopic dose. OD likely occurs when the user miscalculates or doesn't realize what drug he/she is using.


One reference I checked listed LD50 as 3 mg/kg in rats and 0.03 mg/kg in monkeys. The 0.03 mg/kg results in an LD50 of 2-3 mg for the mass of a normal human adult.

I saw the general "lethal dose" for humans listed as 2mg a number of places.

This image is from a DEA page where it is captioned with "photo illustration of 2 milligrams of fentanyl, a lethal dose in most people":



https://www.dea.gov/galleries/drug-images/fentanyl


Also from DEA specifically related to Acetyl Fentanyl - and you are correct - I'm guessing the article confuses milligrams with micrograms - that would be a much smaller 6.2 mg for a 220 lb man, which sounds more in the ballpark; Fentanyl is 50-100 times more potent than Morphine. You can of course die from a much smaller dose, but the LD50 dosage is the "guaranteed" lethal dose half the time:

Acetyl fentanyl
(N-(1-phenethylpiperidin-4-yl)-N-phenylacetamide)
October 2018
DEA/DC/DP/DPE
Introduction:
Acetyl fentanyl, similar to the Schedule II opioid
fentanyl, is a potent opioid analgesic. Recently, it has been linked to a number of overdose deaths in the United States. Acetyl fentanyl is not a part of most illicit drug screens and may remain undetected in many of these cases. Immunoassays (e.g. ELISA) for fentanyl do not differentiate fentanyl and acetyl fentanyl; confirmatory analysis such as gas chromatographyl/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) is required to confirm the presence of acetyl fentanyl.
Chemistry:
The chemical structure of acetyl fentanyl and the schedule II substance fentanyl are shown below.
Acetyl fentanyl Fentanyl
Acetyl fentanyl and fentanyl are in the phenylpiperidine class of synthetic opioids. Acetyl fentanyl contains a phenylacetamide group whereas fentanyl has a phenylpropanamide group at the corresponding position. Desmethyl fentanyl is a synonymous name for acetyl fentanyl, likely due to the removal of a methylene group from the structure of fentanyl.
Pharmacology:
Acetyl fentanyl, similar to fentanyl, possesses opioid-like in vitro binding affinity to µ-opioid receptors as well as produce µ-opioid receptor agonist effects. Acetyl fentanyl has also been shown to inhibit the twitch response in electrically stimulated vas deferens preparation. A study using acetic acid writhing test showed that acetyl fentanyl produces analgesic response in mice and it is about 15.7-fold more potent than that of morphine. Potency of acetyl fentanyl was about 3-fold less than that of fentanyl in this assay. The ED50 (the dose at which 50% of test animals had met the criterion for analgesic response) dose for acetyl fentanyl, fentanyl and morphine were 0.021, 0.0061, and 0.33 mg/kg, respectively. Similarly, in another study using tail flick and phenylquinone writhing tests, acetyl fentanyl produced analgesic response in mice. Acetyl fentanyl has been shown to completely suppress the signs of
withdrawal in morphine-dependent monkeys. Further, acetyl fentanyl produce morphine-like subjective effects in drug
discrimination study.Besides analgesia, fentanyl-like substances, similar to other opioid analgesics, produce a variety of pharmacological effects including alteration in mood, euphoria, drowsiness, respiratory depression, suppression of cough reflex, constriction of pupils (miosis), and impaired gastrointestinal motility. Clinical studies evaluating pharmacological effects of acetyl
fentanyl in humans have not been reported in the scientific literature.
quote:
In acute toxicity studies in mice, the LD50 (the dose causing death of 50% of test animals) of acetyl fentanyl and fentanyl are 9.3 mg/kg and 62 mg/kg, respectively. Significant bleeding in the small intestines of mice was observed in acetyl fentanyl-administered mice.
Licit Uses:
Acetyl fentanyl has not been approved for medical use in the United States and there are no published studies on safety
for human use.
Illicit Uses:
As a µ-opioid receptor agonist, acetyl fentanyl may serve as a direct substitute for heroin or other µ-opioid receptor agonist substances in opioid dependent individuals. Acetyl fentanyl has been detected in tablets that mimic pharmaceutical opioid products, in powder form and spiked on blotter papers. According to DEA’s STARLiMS and National Forensic Laboratory Information System (NFLIS) databases, federal, state and local forensic laboratories reported 9 exhibits identified as acetyl fentanyl in 2013 and 75 exhibits identified as acetyl fentanyl in 2014. In more recent years, the number of acetyl fentanyl exhibits identified have been 2,087 in 2015, 1,942 in 2016, and 1,719 in 2017. In the first six months of 2018, 1,021 exhibits were identified as acetyl fentanyl. The DEA is aware of numerous fatalities involving acetyl fentanyl in the United States. Fatalities have been confirmed in several states.
Control Status
Acetyl fentanyl is a Schedule I substance under the federal Controlled Substances Act.

PDF Link



"And gentlemen in England now abed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's Day"
 
Posts: 2049 | Location: The Shire | Registered: October 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Irksome Whirling Dervish
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So at the G20 summit among the agreements between China and the US was to crack down or curtail the illegal drug market. It's known, without any doubt, that China allows Fentanyl to be sent to the US. Great news, right? Wrong.

These days, according people in the LEO drug business, almost all of the Fentanyl brought into the US come through Mexico from.... drumroll... China.

So Fentanyl problems will continue for a long time to come. China is not our friend.
 
Posts: 3064 | Location: "You can't just go to Walmart with a gift card and get a new brother." Janice Serrano | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And then there is the Chinese carfentanl.
Many times stronger then it's cousin fentanyl.
 
Posts: 30 | Location: Idaho | Registered: June 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
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Short answer: It’s not.

I’m not aware of a single reported LE exposure with complications that was later confirmed to be Fentanyl.

Hysteria.




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Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
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"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 10149 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Spudgun:
And then there is the Chinese carfentanl.
Many times stronger then it's cousin fentanyl.
And flakka. The thread about the homeowner being shot by LEO? I'll bet the naked man trying to kill the grandson was on flakka, so two drug-related deaths right there.


Near the ocean
 
Posts: 1751 | Location: CTZ Florida | Registered: February 03, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by cne32507:
quote:
Originally posted by Spudgun:
And then there is the Chinese carfentanl.
Many times stronger then it's cousin fentanyl.
And flakka. The thread about the homeowner being shot by LEO? I'll bet the naked man trying to kill the grandson was on flakka, so two drug-related deaths right there.


South Florida (my area), seemed to be the hotbed for Flakka. The stuff you would see people doing on that stuff and how they were acting, you couldn't even make it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYd2_1QyI4A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Z3d-dlRjQ
 
Posts: 16608 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Quiet Man
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The danger (from fentanyl at least) isn't really to First Responders. It's to IV drug users who have no idea how much fentanyl has been cut into their heroin. ODs are completely out of control in my part of the world at least. I'm very glad I'm not doing that kind of work any more.

There are other new synthetics that I'd be much more concerned about. Not that they'd be absorbed through the skin, but that a dangerous dose can be transferred from the skin to mucus membranes like the eyes, nose, and mouth when a officer or paramedic who doesn't even know they've encountered the substance wipes sweat off their face.
 
Posts: 1630 | Registered: November 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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The dealers know what they're doing. Most of the doses are correct. They don't want to kill off all of their customers.

However one of the bits of perverse logic in the drug trade is that if the junkie market hears that someone has ODed on a particular dealers product, all the junkies want his merchandise, because the figure it's more potent. The dealers know this. So they put out the occasional "hot shot" a dose with an intentionally lethal amount of Fentanyl. The junkie that gets it ODs, and the dealer gets more business.

quote:
Originally posted by dusty3030:
The junkies are getting it mixed in with the heroin they are buying. The fentanyl is laced in with the heroin. Not an exact science so a "strong" batch hits the street and the junkies shoot up their normal dose and OD.
 
Posts: 18403 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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