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Roy Halladay Dies in Plane Crash in Gulf of Mexico Login/Join 
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
quote:
Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
This is why we'll never have flying cars as the same people that go all stupid down the interstate with sport bikes will do the same thing with aircraft.
This is why we can't have flying things.
As this incident demonstrates - they market it as a flying boat that operates like a car and can be flown like a jet ski.

Problem is it hurts a little more than a jet ski wipe out when you smack the water.

So much fail.
 
Posts: 36149 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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quote:
Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
I'm a pilot and aircraft owner.
I've seen what happens when someone does stupid shit with an aircraft.
A seaplane rating requires a LOT of training and hours.
But this is a LSA/SPL.
In other words, 1/4 the training the rest of us have to have.

I don’t know anything about what is required for an LSA seaplane endorsement, but a seaplane rating doesn’t take much training. I got my commercial single engine sea rating with 4.8 (including the check ride) in a J-3 Cub on straight floats. My commercial multiengine sea rating and CFI renewal which I did at the same time took only 6.9 hours (including the check ride) in an Apache on amphibious floats. Not a lot of training, and were I to decide to fly any seaplane in the future I’d get specific training in it.

That said, I think a lot of it comes back to a great poster that was around when I was learning to fly. It had a picture of a Jenny stuck in a tree. The text reads, “Aviation is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.”
 
Posts: 2644 | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of JJexp
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quote:
Originally posted by slosig:
quote:
Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
I'm a pilot and aircraft owner.
I've seen what happens when someone does stupid shit with an aircraft.
A seaplane rating requires a LOT of training and hours.
But this is a LSA/SPL.
In other words, 1/4 the training the rest of us have to have.

I don’t know anything about what is required for an LSA seaplane endorsement, but a seaplane rating doesn’t take much training. I got my commercial single engine sea rating with 4.8 (including the check ride) in a J-3 Cub on straight floats. My commercial multiengine sea rating and CFI renewal which I did at the same time took only 6.9 hours (including the check ride) in an Apache on amphibious floats. Not a lot of training, and were I to decide to fly any seaplane in the future I’d get specific training in it.

That said, I think a lot of it comes back to a great poster that was around when I was learning to fly. It had a picture of a Jenny stuck in a tree. The text reads, “Aviation is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.”


I got my commercial seaplane at the same location, I’m willing to bet. ( and I’ll be there next weekend too!) The secret to getting it done in that timeframe is to have a bunch of time already. The secret to staying alive after the rating is to respect the floats, and realize that you’re still not a bush pilot.
 
Posts: 309 | Location: Hatboro, PA | Registered: May 25, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shaman
Picture of ScreamingCockatoo
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My insurance company wouldn't insure me without 40+
in a seaplane.
Which means rental and instruction time.





Before there was man, the parrot ruled the world. Now man rules the world and the parrot has not forgiven - Native American Proverb.
 
Posts: 37835 | Location: Atop the cockatoo tree | Registered: July 27, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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And you gentlemen exude what makes a good pilot - the decision making and head work to realize just because you “can” do something doesn’t mean you are remotely “good” at it or shouldn’t continue to build your experience base.

Extremely low flight (especially over the water) in any aircraft is a receipe for disaster.
 
Posts: 36149 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
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My old instructor often spoke about “the habitual exercise of sound judgment.”

His flying license was signed by Orville Wright




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 42934 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of JJexp
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

Extremely low flight (especially over the water) in any aircraft is a receipe for disaster.


Indeed, and glassy water is the most challenging of all. Even the most experienced of seaplane drivers still adhere to the prescribed techniques for departing and landing in such conditions. Much more experienced guys that I’ll ever be tell me that you never ever get over the complete lack of depth perception. Sure, you pick up a few tricks along the way to improve your technique, but you can still get bit for thinking you can just eyeball it based on your experience.
 
Posts: 309 | Location: Hatboro, PA | Registered: May 25, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One should endevor to fly in the middle of the airspace. The closer you get to the edges, the danger rises exponentially. All experienced pilots know this intrisically. Risk management at it's basic level. Experience is a cold hard teacher.


======
...welcome to the barnyard...some animals are more equal than others
 
Posts: 844 | Location: Utah | Registered: May 29, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by thezoltar:
One should endevor to fly in the middle of the airspace. The closer you get to the edges, the danger rises exponentially. All experienced pilots know this intrisically. Risk management at it's basic level. Experience is a cold hard teacher.


There’s a lot more directs to be had at the edges. Less traffic.
 
Posts: 309 | Location: Hatboro, PA | Registered: May 25, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

Extremely low flight (especially over the water) in any aircraft is a receipe for disaster.


No, it's not.

If that were the case, I'd be unemployed. Or dead.

I'm neither.

Low altitude operations need to be done safely, with care, and should be done by those trained to operate at low level. Low altitude operations can be done safely.

quote:
Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
I'm a pilot and aircraft owner.
I've seen what happens when someone does stupid shit with an aircraft.
A seaplane rating requires a LOT of training and hours.
But this is a LSA/SPL.
In other words, 1/4 the training the rest of us have to have.


Not so.

Typically, about five hours, sometimes as much as 10, are used in accomplishing a seaplane rating. Seaplane flying is easier than landing on wheels (it's also a lot more fun).

In the case of ICON aircraft, part of the purchase price is training, and the training is conducted by ex military pilots, with an established syllabus.

A seaplane rating requires neither a lot of hours, nor a lot of training.

quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Imagine a high performance sport car. But it’s also a boat. And a plane.

Sell it to a dude with lotsa $$$. If I read the minimum requirements you can fly this thing with <30hrs
( https://www.iconaircraft.com/flight-center ), but then again I’m not completely in the know about how the LSA piloting / certifications go. But I think that’s right - you need 20 total hours to be an LSA then do the icon syllabus of 1.5 and 7 hours. YGTBFSM.

Pitch this to any experienced pilot and see your response.


It's not a particularly high performance airplane. Light sport airplanes aren't.

I'm not a fan of the light sport program in general, as it represents a dumbing down and reduction in training and safety for what are already minimal requirements. While the FAA requires 40 hours for a private pilot, the national average is closer to 75-80 hours for most people, indicating that few accomplish their certification with the minimum, and the real world numbers show that people really need about double.

Reducing the number of hours and level of experience required isn't a step forward.

That said, the link you provided show a 1.5 hour introduction flight, and 10 hours required to solo. To achieve light sport pilot with a seaplane rating in their syllabus, pilots will achieve certification with whatever training is necessary...that doesn't mean they'll complete it in the minimum. It doesn't take a lot of training to achieve a seaplane rating, and it's not a particularly difficult skill to learn.

There's no accounting for poor choices.

quote:
Originally posted by jehzsa:


Pretty bold for a pilot that had logged 700 hours.


It's not the hours. It's the judgement and maturity. Pilots graduate military UPT with far less hours and are flying supersonic tactical turbojet aircraft. I was eighteen years old flying formation under powerlines and spraying fields with about a third of that...it's not the hours, it's the pilot. For some, a few thousand hours still aren't enough, but while 700 hours is still fairly low time, it's not the cause of bad behavior.
 
Posts: 1426 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Pretty bold for a pilot that had logged 700 hours.

***

It's not the hours. It's the judgement and maturity.

"I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex."

What I meant is that no one who knew him would classify him as immature. However, that doesn't mean that perhaps he thought of that heavier-than-a-LSA LSA as a Stuka dive bomber.

And that's where judgment errors come into play. It's not like that heavier-than-a-LSA LSA's certification is anything even remotely similar to taking the Deluxe BMW Driver School in Germany in the 70s.

But then, 700 hours for a civilian is not exactly being a rookie.


***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
 
Posts: 13650 | Location: Tampa, Florida | Registered: December 12, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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sns3guppy -

Depends how you define extremely low flight I guess, so I see your point - Personally I see that <10' in a prop or <25' in a jet on flat terrain / water.

Above that you still need the required skill set / judgement to not kill yourself - I was comfortable at 40-50' in a military jet with the right pilot, but with others a couple hundred feet was about all they could manage. But you are correct, with training low altitude operations are safe.

I never said it was a high performance aircraft, but when you consider the speed of the plane and the environment the manufacture shows it operating in (low over the water, since it can land there), it's akin to a high performance car (which is what I said in the first place).

Regardless - if morons with minimal time, training, skill, and judgment continue to fly planes in the manner of which this plane has been marketed, I predict more crashes and morts. Thankfully they can only take a max of 1 passenger with them.
 
Posts: 36149 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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quote:
Originally posted by JJexp:
I got my commercial seaplane at the same location, I’m willing to bet. ( and I’ll be there next weekend too!) The secret to getting it done in that timeframe is to have a bunch of time already. The secret to staying alive after the rating is to respect the floats, and realize that you’re still not a bush pilot.


Salton Sea? I didn’t know Brad was there anymore.

Yes, knowing how to finesse an airplane before you go to get your seaplane rating doesn’t hurt. Neither does having your glider (and glider instructor) rating, nor having a bunch of tailwheel time. Still, I saw folks with little time do the same thing.

You are absolutely right about the secret to staying alive. Really, at the end of the day, any rating is just a LICENSE TO LEARN.
 
Posts: 2644 | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of JJexp
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quote:
Originally posted by slosig:

Salton Sea? I didn’t know Brad was there anymore.



Nope, my mistake. Jack Brown's.
 
Posts: 309 | Location: Hatboro, PA | Registered: May 25, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
sns3guppy -

Depends how you define extremely low flight I guess, so I see your point - Personally I see that <10' in a prop or <25' in a jet on flat terrain / water.

Above that you still need the required skill set / judgement to not kill yourself - I was comfortable at 40-50' in a military jet with the right pilot, but with others a couple hundred feet was about all they could manage. But you are correct, with training low altitude operations are safe.



It doesnt begin to be low until you're looking up at powerlines. Flight over water in a seaplane, however, especially when not glassy water, not that big a deal. The world becomes one big runway.

I've done low in piston props, turbine props, large turbine props, large piston props, and turbojet aircraft, large and small. While a pilot can make it unsafe, low altitude flight of its own accord is not unsafe.

Depth perception on water can be an issue, particularly with glassy water (which was not the case here). Lack of reference on flat terrain/water can lead to flying into the ground unless one proactively works to avoid it. Clearly the subject of the thread did not.
 
Posts: 1426 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Are you Chuck Yeager? Pleased to meet you. Wink
 
Posts: 36149 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No. Are you? What's Yeager got to do with the price of tea in China?

Yeager wasn't a seaplane pilot, nor was his job low altitude flight operations.

One needn't be chuck yeager to fly at low altitude. It's not rocket science, you see.
 
Posts: 1426 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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Play nice, guys.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16248 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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sns3guppy

 
Posts: 36149 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It doesnt begin to be low until you're looking up at powerlines. Flight over water in a seaplane, however, especially when not glassy water, not that big a deal. The world becomes one big runway.


Sounds like a duster, or a fire attack guy. Definitely more experience in that corner of the envelope in more types of aircraft than I have.

A long (very long) time ago I would have defined low over the water as that point where your eyes are locked outside and you don’t look inside for anything (somewhere around 20’ on the altimeter). If the engine in that C-140 coughed at 90mph there was enough energy to lift up and set down on the shoreline. Extremely low was when you floated up a few feet as each swell came by and back down after it passed. Somewhere I’ve got a picture a buddy took from his 140 from above with the propwash looking like a boats’s wake on the water. It can be done, but one has to think it all the through and have pre-planned the the response to everything (at least everything you can think of). You also need to be really comfortable in the specific airplane.

As I am less young and hopefully less stupid, these days I don’t crowd the edges of envelopes any more than absolutely necessary.
 
Posts: 2644 | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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