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Proud member of
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quote:
Originally posted by 83v45magna:
quote:
Originally posted by medic451:
Exactly, this city councilman is an idiot. Not only will this "proposal" never end up as a written law or policy, no medical director in their right mind would make it an official practice. One wrongful death lawsuit would negate any cost saving measures this policy had in mind. Its not practical, its not logical, and its not legal.

I think he knows it's not a practical solution. It would never fly from myriad perspectives. My guess then, would be he's trying to raise public awareness and get it being talked about once again. It's the only thing that proposing such a law might accomplish.


Winner!


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Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
Soren Kierkegaard
 
Posts: 17524 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Political Cynic
Picture of nhtagmember
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the 'War on Drugs' was lost the day before it started

I can understand the motivation behind it going all the way back to Johnson and Nixon but lets be real

in a war, we're supposed to win but he have probably a half million people in prison for drugs and we've spent billions on the debacle and what do we have to show for it?

A decline in use? Nope.

So I think we're at a crossroads here. Drug abusers want to die. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't let them do just that. Intervention only stalls the inevitable and costs us money.



Peace is not the absence of conflict, but rather when you have your foot firmly on the enemies neck

"I'm only myself when I have a guitar in my hands." - George Harrison


 
Posts: 44524 | Location: Arizona | Registered: January 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
Smoking and obesity take decades to kill you. How quickly can a person overdose? In less time than it takes you to floss and brush your teeth.

Apples and oranges


Absolutely. Furthermore, smokers and chubbies have likely been working and paying taxes for those decades of their decline. They also are likely to have health insurance that will cover the expense of the EMS response, thus costing the taxpayer nothing. The comparison between a heroine addict and an unhealthy lifestyle misses the mark completely.



[i]
 
Posts: 4813 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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While there are multiple contributing factors to this ( everyone wants to seem to blame prescribers for starting the opiod crisis- you know docs give out too much Vicodin! I lay blame at the feet of joint commission- earlier in my career they pushed providers hard saying we were not doing enough for pain control - make pain the fifth vital sign and all that) I am a bit more extreme- one dose narcan that creates a permanent stain at the administration site- second od? Check for stain if present it is an automatic do not resuscitate order!
 
Posts: 2024 | Location: Finally free in AZ! | Registered: February 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I often tell people "I'm just here to save you. I couldn't care less how or if it gets paid for. That's somebody else's job".

If I had to worry deciding who was "worth it" and who wasn't, I would never get anything done.

1) Person? Check
2) Needs help? Check.
3) Proceed with helping.

What they do with their life after I'm done is their choice.

Edit: This proposal is the kind of feel good stuff we come up with in the bar after an especially frustrating shift. It feels great to say it. We laugh. We order another drink. And then we go home.

Bruce



Hanlon's Razor /prov./ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, that reads "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

"It is better to be considered a house cat and sit on the lap of pretty girls than to be feared as a tiger and hunted by men."- T. Takamatsu
 
Posts: 2247 | Location: NV | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
God will always provide
Picture of Fla. Jim
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quote:
Originally posted by medic451:
This whole debate is ridiculous, that proposed law is going nowhere. Being a paramedic in Los Angeles County and dealing with this more often than 99% of the members here leaves me with no kind feeling or sympathy towards heroin addicts. That being said, its not my place or my job to leave these people to their fate. I signed up to save lives, not judge their inherent value on this planet.

If you are ignorant enough to think this is a good idea, then tell me, where should it stop? Should we let drunk drivers die in their vehicles after an accident? Might seem like justice to some of you but in practicality its nonsense.

By the way I love pushing Narcan... one of the few satisfactions I get from running on the same dope addict at 3am is fucking up his high. Im not against coming up with creative ways of making them actually pay for the treatment they receive, but witholding care is not a viable option. You know what creates the biggest burden on EMS in my local area? Ill be honest with you guys, 90% of the calls we get are for absolute bullshit that didnt require an ER visit much less a 911 call or an ambulance transport. That podunk town in Ohio would save more money if they could find away to refer those types if patients to other facilities vs witholding a relativly cheap drug that isnt used as often as that article claims.


Agree with what you wrote and it was my feelings when I worked Fire/EMS. Saving lives and property is the creed. No matter how stupid the persons involved were. And yes some days BS calls seemed to be all we ran on. It sometimes was hard to not get jaded. Anyone who is a Law or fire person knows we repeatedly run on the same people doing the same stupid shit. But it's the job we signed up for. So we need to do it the best we can. "Every run" you must do the best you can or when you fail to revive or fix a problem. So you can live with the results. I think only a sociopath could live with purposely letting a person/patient die when they could stop it. And trust me when I say this, you will relive some of your most trying runs and wonder if you did enough. Long after the event and long after you leave the service.
 
Posts: 2981 | Location: White City, Florida | Registered: January 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
In the yahd, not too
fah from the cah
Picture of ryan81986
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quote:
Originally posted by P-220:
Our Dept. uses 2 mg nasal. Thankfully, this has been enough for what we have encountered, but have heard from neighboring Dept's that more is sometimes needed, as the shit is cut with even worse shit.


The most I've heard of so far is 14mg.



 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Metro West, MA | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
the 'War on Drugs' was lost the day before it started


As a counterpoint - No, it wasn't. The war on drugs is, and always will be, a good vs. evil conflict. We have not, and never will, eliminate evil from human nature but that doesn't mean we don't keep fighting. There are many reasons why the War on Drugs hasn't met your metric of eliminating all drug use. This has been hashed out before.




 
Posts: 3514 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I75/70 corridor is the main pipeline for the drugs.
 
Posts: 4956 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The problem might solve itself.

Georgia authorities have confirmed two new strains of fentanyl so potent that they may be resistant to the lifesaving antidote naloxone, also known as Narcan. Georgia Bureau of Investigators (GBI) warned on Tuesday of acrylfentanyl, which has been linked to at least 44 overdose deaths in Cook County, Illinois, this year, and tetrahydrofureon, which is so new that it’s not on Georgia’s banned synthetic designer drugs list.

According to GBI, the Forsyth County Sheriff’s Office submitted forensic drug evidence containing the two new drugs in March. The state officially outlawed acrylfentanyl in April, with officials warning that it’s not clear how the body will respond to either drug.

“There are multiple reports showing that this drug is resistant to naloxone,” Nelly Miles, of the GBI, told Channel 2 Action News of acrylfentanyl.

Police are also warning that simply touching any form of fentanyl or fentanyl residue could result in a life-threatening overdose.

“We’re talking about such trace amounts that literally the size of one grain of salt can kill,” Marietta Police Office Chuck McPhilamy told First Coast News.

Georgia was hit with a rash of overdoses in June, which was believed to be linked to a street version of Percocet and resulted in four fatalities and more than a dozen hospitalizations. At the time, the overdose clusters were concentrated in southern and central areas of the state. It is not clear if the two new strains have appeared outside of Forsyth county.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/...uthorities-warn.html
 
Posts: 3772 | Location: 20 miles north of hell | Registered: November 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
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^^^^ The people inventing/distributing this shit need to be put down.


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Posts: 12617 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
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I have two doses.
I'm saving it for a child or one of us that accidentally gets hit. I have switched to nitrile gloves since one of our officers got some on his hand brushing it off his pants.

I'm sick of saving the same people over and over again. Let them die. I said years ago the best way to win the war and drugs is to let them die. Dead users aren't repeat customers.



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 4915 | Location: South of Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
Master of Nothing
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I have no sympathy for them, but I'm not paid enough to play God.




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 9650 | Location: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
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quote:
Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
I have no sympathy for them, but I'm not paid enough to play God.
Give this mess a couple of years and see if you don't end up feeling more god-like.

Just wait. All the ethical considerations shall become secondary in the face of what's coming.


____________________________________________________

There are two tragedies in life. One is not to get your heart's desire. The other is to get it. ― George Bernard Shaw
 
Posts: 78155 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am with you Chowser. Save those that have accidentally come into contact with the shit these assholes are using, not the ones that keep stealing or worse to support their bad habit. This epidemic could have ended a long time ago if people had the balls to let nature take its course.

Now, RNshooter, since you said "I'm just here to save you. I couldn't care less how or if it gets paid for. That's somebody else's job". I'll assume that you get paid to do what you do. If that is the case, what would happen if you weren't getting paid and every time you dosed someone with Narcan, it came out of your pocket? Would that change your view on things; because that is exactly how this shit storm is affecting most of us here at Sigforum. Taxes have been raised all across the country in an effort to combat the drug epidemic with not much changing except how much money we have for ourselves.

Personal accountability is really good mantra, especially on this forum. Those that don't see the issue with someone habitually overdosing need a reality check. These people have made the conscious choice to engage in activity they know might kill them and do so willingly. Let them die! Sure, you want to equate me to being some kind of sociopath, but I rather see myself as a person that would much rather save a person that wants to be saved! This is similar in scope as lefties trying to rehabilitate serial killers or pedophiles. They think they can change what they do, when in reality there is no such action that can be taken from the outside that will change what/who they are. It is nothing more than a pipe dream to think you make a difference, other than to actually cause the further spreading of the stupidity of this epidemic.

Here's how I see things. A doctor uses his skill and knowledge to identify, treat, and eradicate cancer...That is what we have here, but instead of letting the cancer die, you medical professionals are propagating it. To think that you are not is delusional! That person you just saved yesterday...he went out and got his buddy hooked on that shit, thus starting another life cycle. This is a plague that spreads every time you allow it to live. You don't want a virus to transfer from one individual to another, but that is what you are doing.


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Posts: 970 | Location: Lake Anna, VA | Registered: May 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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A local official’s proposing to deliberately stop saving people from their overdoses is just political theater. There is absolutely no way that such a policy would ever be implemented in practice, and any medical providers who believe it’s all right to intentionally withhold potentially life-saving care from patients that they think don’t deserve it had better run, not walk, to their legal advisors.

Police these days get sued for using TASERs or putting handcuffs on too tight, for crying in the rain, and charged with serious criminal offenses for not tying prisoners down in the back of transport trucks. Like it or don’t like it, saying, “No, I’ve been here before and you’re on your own now,” would be an excellent way to end up facing severe civil and possibly criminal penalties. That sort of thing doesn’t happen to medical personnel now because they don’t make those kinds of decisions, but put a little blood in the water and see what happens.




“The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.”
—With credit to Mark Twain, even if he didn’t say exactly that.
 
Posts: 36775 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gustofer:
^^^^ The people inventing/distributing this shit need to be put down.


There was a recent study in Kentucky of marijuana that was in police evidence rooms. 70 percent of all marijuana that was tested was laced with something else. About half of that was laced with fentanyl.


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Posts: 30094 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mutedblade:
I am with you Chowser. Save those that have accidentally come into contact with the shit these assholes are using, not the ones that keep stealing or worse to support their bad habit. This epidemic could have ended a long time ago if people had the balls to let nature take its course.

Now, RNshooter, since you said "I'm just here to save you. I couldn't care less how or if it gets paid for. That's somebody else's job". I'll assume that you get paid to do what you do. If that is the case, what would happen if you weren't getting paid and every time you dosed someone with Narcan, it came out of your pocket? Would that change your view on things; because that is exactly how this shit storm is affecting most of us here at Sigforum. Taxes have been raised all across the country in an effort to combat the drug epidemic with not much changing except how much money we have for ourselves.

Personal accountability is really good mantra, especially on this forum. Those that don't see the issue with someone habitually overdosing need a reality check. These people have made the conscious choice to engage in activity they know might kill them and do so willingly. Let them die! Sure, you want to equate me to being some kind of sociopath, but I rather see myself as a person that would much rather save a person that wants to be saved! This is similar in scope as lefties trying to rehabilitate serial killers or pedophiles. They think they can change what they do, when in reality there is no such action that can be taken from the outside that will change what/who they are. It is nothing more than a pipe dream to think you make a difference, other than to actually cause the further spreading of the stupidity of this epidemic.

Here's how I see things. A doctor uses his skill and knowledge to identify, treat, and eradicate cancer...That is what we have here, but instead of letting the cancer die, you medical professionals are propagating it. To think that you are not is delusional! That person you just saved yesterday...he went out and got his buddy hooked on that shit, thus starting another life cycle. This is a plague that spreads every time you allow it to live. You don't want a virus to transfer from one individual to another, but that is what you are doing.


Point of clarification: I tell that to people, all the time: People who will die from high blood sugar (too many Twinkies) or congestive heart failure (can't stick to their low salt diet and fluid restrictions) or about to stroke out from their high blood pressure (don't like how their meds make them feel)...the list of ailments that are the patient's own fault is endless. And almost every one of them has some version of "How am I going to afford this?" as a worry, besides the immediate issue of, you know, dying.

Almost every thing ailing a human (obviously excepting cancer in children) can be traced back to some bad choice.
Saying "fuck 'em" feels good and makes us feel superior.
Shrug.
Whether I'm getting paid or doing it as a volunteer, I like the clarity I have from not having to make value judgements before rendering aid.

YMMV,

Bruce



Hanlon's Razor /prov./ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, that reads "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

"It is better to be considered a house cat and sit on the lap of pretty girls than to be feared as a tiger and hunted by men."- T. Takamatsu
 
Posts: 2247 | Location: NV | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
Master of Nothing
Picture of 2000Z-71
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 83v45magna:
quote:
Originally posted by medic451:
Exactly, this city councilman is an idiot. Not only will this "proposal" never end up as a written law or policy, no medical director in their right mind would make it an official practice. One wrongful death lawsuit would negate any cost saving measures this policy had in mind. Its not practical, its not logical, and its not legal.

I think he knows it's not a practical solution. It would never fly from myriad perspectives. My guess then, would be he's trying to raise public awareness and get it being talked about once again. It's the only thing that proposing such a law might accomplish.

Or he's a politician trying to rally his base to ensure his re-election by making sound byte statements.




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 9650 | Location: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
Master of Nothing
Picture of 2000Z-71
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
quote:
Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
I have no sympathy for them, but I'm not paid enough to play God.
Give this mess a couple of years and see if you don't end up feeling more god-like.

Just wait. All the ethical considerations shall become secondary in the face of what's coming.

I work as an RN in a Level I trauma center. One could say I make my living by fixing other people's bad decisions; be it overdosing on heroin, a diabetic non-compliant with medication or a, "Hey hold my beer" moment. My job is to reverse and stabilize a situation, not pass judgement on who is worthy of care and who is not. I really don't want the responsibility of deciding life and death that arose from someone's irresponsibility.




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 9650 | Location: Phoenix, AZ | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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