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| Little ray of sunshine  |
If VW owns Ducati . . . I mean, I don't know the facts about who has voting rights and board seats, but if VW controls Ducati, who can stop it from selling? I don't know HD's management, but maybe they'll have sense enough to leave the Ducati people run the business. On the other hand, takeover management often can't keep its hands off a business it doesn't really understand and screws it up. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Member |
Might be a good idea for Harley Davidson to purchase Ducati. Ducati could teach HD how to build a decent lightweight touring motorcycle. ********* "Some people are alive today because it's against the law to kill them". | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
What role did Buell play in the development of the V-Rod? | |||
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Member |
Given what I've read, I think VW was more caretaker than owner given they left the design and operational management at Ducati in tact. I have no ax to grind with HD, I simply see the sexy, exotic, Ducati sport bike as a poor fit with HD's American chrome cruisers and baggers. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| Gracie Allen is my personal savior! |
I'm afraid you have it backwards. Harley promised Buell they'd develop a lighter, stronger engine with a higher top end so he could go after the sports bike market. Instead, they took Buell's engine out of development when it was only halfway there, stuck in in some cruisers, and told Buell to suck eggs for the remainder of his contract. | |||
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| Member |
IMO, the Rotax powered Buell 1125R was the best of the litter but HD managed to screw up sales of that fine machine. ********* "Some people are alive today because it's against the law to kill them". | |||
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| Member |
A question for the investment guys. Is 14X EBITA a typical offering for this kind of business? Seems like the ROI would take quite a while depending on how leveraged the purchase was. I know in my industry, 5X - 8X is the typical selling price for a business. Ken | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
If done properly both can benefit, HD has more money and access to significant resources for parts, suppliers, lines of credit, Ducati and HD both have devout followers. Buell was a mess from the beginning, Eric Buell has run it three times into the ground, we can all blame HD, or Eric but the fact is the sport bike market is very crowded and unless you have a few billion to toss into the market, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki et al own the market. Buells other issue was price point, kids buy crotch rockets, under 30 riders for the most part and a $8000 600 was half the price of a basic Buell. Add insurance to the top and you can't afford to finance a Buell at 16K for 4 years plus $500 a month for insurance for a 20 year old male. That stuff just doesn't fly Ducati is another animal, $25K bikes fit into the price point at HD, a FLH bagger is $30K Softails $22K, HD customers at least in the $ and credit department should stack up. Maybe a Ducati Multistrada 1200 S to go in the garage with my HD RG touring bike. One where I don't have to hump a monkey to ride the thing, I'd have to dent the air box cover in for my stomach to fit | |||
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Ducatista |
When did I mention that Ducati wasn't owned by VW? What I am saying is that the Italians want to keep Ducati owned in the EU. HD won't get the approvals needed. If HD does pay their way in, like paying off the Greek debt, Ducati is doomed. But I doubt it.... But don't mind me, what do I know about Ducati? Here is my take on how to make it actually work: HD saw Ducati gaining share in a shrinking market, and is attracted by their ability to bring in new riders (Scrambler, anyone) which is something they've been having a difficult time doing for years now. There is next to no overlap between the product lines. I say that because I don't think there are a ton of people cross shopping Ultras and Multistradas, and I doubt folks interested in a Night Rod are looking at Diavels/XDiavels and vice versa although it's more likely than the touring example. On paper it looks like it could be a good fit. The whole thing would hinge on HD management not meddling with Ducati's design or marketing, which I wouldn't bet on. HD's given no indication that they know a damned thing about technical innovation, or even how to sell anything except classic big cruisers based around an old-school air-cooled twin, and moreso the associated "lifestyle". The MV Agusta purchase was a huge bust that they blamed on poor timing. They screwed Buell by refusing for years to put any money into designing a new motor more appropriate for a sport bike. Hell, even in their own segment I feel like they've f'd up with the V-Rod line by basically only building one model around that motor. HD franchises carried Buell when they were around, and most treated them like a red-headed stepchild. If HD does buy Ducati and HD dealerships start carrying Ducs, I'd expect them to get the same treatment. Audi is owned by VW. Audi and Lamborghini have a nice arrangement going. I don't see VW being rash with Ducati. ___________________ "He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod" Compressions 9.5:1 | |||
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Member |
I own Harley and ride Ducati. Please, no, don't let this happen. ____________________ | |||
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| Ducatista |
https://www.reuters.com/articl...ti-m-a-idUSKBN19C1XX Io quote the Reuters article: Volkswagen's powerful labor unions, which control half the seats on the carmaker's 20-strong supervisory board, repeated their opposition to selling the Italian motorcycle maker. "Ducati is a jewel, the sale of which is not supported by the labor representatives on Volkswagen's supervisory board," a spokesman for VW group's works council said in an email. "Harley-Davidson is miles behind Ducati in technology terms," he added. Evercore has sent out information packages to a number of potential suitors including Ducati's previous owner Investindustrial, sources with knowledge of the matter said. Investindustrial bought a stake in Ducati before the financial crisis, subsequently taking control of the business before selling it to Audi in 2012. It is now looking to compete with heavyweight private equity firms and large industry players to regain control. Volkswagen, Audi, Harley-Davidson, KKR and Bain Capital declined to comment. Bajaj, Investindustrial and Permira were not immediately available. Volkswagen, Europe's largest carmaker, is seeking to move beyond an emissions-cheating scandal that has tarnished its image and left it facing billions of euros in fines and settlements. ___________________ "He who is without oil, shall throw the first rod" Compressions 9.5:1 | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine |
All that sounds credible. If the Italians/EU doesn't want Ducati to come to America, they may have the ability to block it. I confess to know nothing about that. And the rest is very reasonable. Most acquirers of companies don't have the sense to not meddle in markets they don't understand. It makes sense that adding sportbikes to HD's portfolio would be smart. As you say, HD buyers aren't interested in Ducatis and Ducati buyers aren't buying Fatboys, so it should grow HD's market share. But HD's execs are not likely to able to resist exerting too much control over Ducati. And then they'll find Ducati buyers not wanting "those damn Milwuakee Ducatis." The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Bodhisattva |
I hope they don't manage to destroy the company before they sell it. | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
If they - or anyone - could resist the notion to meddle, sure, why not. Otherwise, it's a coin toss at best, whether it's motorcycles or anything else. I've no particular interest in one brand vs the other and who knows/does what better. They're different, no doubt. The rest is purely subjective. Oranges vs Tangelos. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
Because history never repeats itself. I mean the Italians sold Ducati to a bunch of Americans once already, so of course they won't do it again. HD is a bad fit for any other motorcycle brand. The entire company lives and breaths Harley-Davidson. They bleed orange and black. It's not that they haven't tried to break out of the model: VR1000, Buell, Gemini Racing, MV Agusta. | |||
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| Gracie Allen is my personal savior! |
Even so, they're trying to absorb something that's more or less their polar opposite. Ducati's always been on the cutting edge of lightly built, technologically sophisticated, high-maintenance bikes. Harley really needed to find someone who could teach them how to build the equivalent of the old CB360. That would've given them something different that they could sell to a whole 'nother market. More importantly, in my opinion, that would've positioned them to begin a development process over time that would eventually allow them to mount a solid challenge to Big-4 sportsbikes. | |||
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| Page late and a dollar short |
H-D has been down this road before the MV deal, from Wikipedia Quote: \Motorcycles[edit] Aermacchi began producing motorcycles after World War II. In 1960, US business Harley-Davidson motorcycles purchased 50% of Aermacchi's motorcycle division. The remaining motorcycle holdings were sold in 1974 to AMF-Harley-Davidson, with motorcycles continuing to be made at Varese. The business was sold to Cagiva in 1978. -------------------------------------—————— ————————--Ignorance is a powerful tool if applied at the right time, even, usually, surpassing knowledge(E.J.Potter, A.K.A. The Michigan Madman) | |||
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Armed and Gregarious |
Should I assume the AMF comment means you know the true history of H-D, and how what went on under AMF's control saved the company, or are you one of the folks who doesn't know the facts, and likes to bash the AMF leadership? ___________________________________________ "He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman | |||
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| Member |
I own both and worked for Harley. I see no good coming out of this. Harley will f**k Ducati up. | |||
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| Green grass and high tides  |
I agree with you and RichardNC 100%. "Practice like you want to play in the game" | |||
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