quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I cant say what practice, custom and procedure is in place with this agency, but:
My outfit generally did not attempt to serve arrest warrants at residences late at night. It was too risky for all involved. If a known violent offender ( I mean really violent, not thump your old lady weekly violent) was wanted, an apprehension team was formed and the operation tactically planned. Often, the warrant service attempt was done right about sun rise.
For most of my run of the mill, fail to appear warrants, I used a trick that worked well:
I would call the residence that I knew my guy was in and when someone answered, I would whisper "better get out of there, the cops are coming"! And hang up. This often resulted in a mass exodus on foot or by car. Pretty simple to scoop up the wanted party. And sometimes a couple of other warrants got served. too.
Pretty devious, no? Worked great for me!

Picturing this with Benny Hill music made me lol

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Here's the thing. All we know at this point is that a dude was shot at the wrong house. That is it.

Every bit in this is speculation, very few facts.

Does it look bad? Yes, it does.

jljones, I picked out the most relevant things in your post. Cherry picking if you will, but I feel that it gets my point across the best.

You stated the most obvious fact and probably the most important. The dude was shot and killed in his house. Whether he had a gun on him, close to him, or whether he had one at all is not an issue that I care about. He was well within his rights as a citizen/resident (not sure which actually applies here) to have a gun inside of his home for protection. That is a very simple human right that I am sure we can all agree on. Now back to the story...He was killed inside his home. The police were the ones that killed this man. Those are the facts that we have. There is a bunch of speculation in this story and I will agree with you on that, BUT there is that one pesky fact, the only fact that matters....That one where the WRONG DUDE GOT KILLED BY POLICE IN THE WRONG HOUSE. Anything outside of this is trying to bury the shit with little technicalities like "oh, he had a gun pointed at a cop" or some other excuse for a bad shoot. Why shouldn't this victim have been armed? Is this not what we espouse on this forum? To protect ourselves?

Here's my problem with the whole situation. The guy had no reason to expect the police at his home, much less trying to enter it forcibly! He wasn't a shithead thug with a sheet of convictions. He wasn't wanted for even the smallest offense, yet he was shot and killed by the police...in his home. His crime? Not one. Nothing. Police officers majorly fucked up and here Sigforum is debating whether it was a good shoot or not. I just can't understand.

We are a society that enjoys our freedoms. Freedom from fear of the police is one. I can't think of any place I should feel more safe than in my own home. I should have a reasonable expectation to not have the cops beating on my door at any time of the day unless I have somehow fucked up, right? This is probably how Mr. Lopez felt and now he's getting smeared because some of us can't accept that LEO sometimes fuck up.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
I'd like to point out how perfect I am.

I respond to an average of 100 calls every one of my 4-day work-weeks. Some days it is 30 calls a day.

I usually end up at the wrong location at least once a shift, usually more.

Going to wrong locations based on 911 calls is an EVERY DAY THING.

But, do you shoot and kill someone EVERY DAY at the wrong location? Please don't answer that as I was just trying to get a point across.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
I do not answer the door when it is dark, unless I am expecting someone.

Are you blaming the VICTIM for his death by incompetent cops?

I have the cops knocking on my door in the middle of the night several times a year when a horse gets out and is found wandering the road.

You know what they do? Put the car WITH THE STROBES ON at my front door before they knock as they know I am armed. Strobes let me know it's not burglars. He tells me not to have my weapon through the door. I answer through the door that I am opening it unarmed and all is fine.


Then we go and catch the horse.

If the dash cameras show the strobes were off, the homeowner had every reason to suspect the people at the door were not the police.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:
Police officers majorly fucked up and here Sigforum is debating whether it was a good shoot or not. I just can't understand.

Neither can I. It's freakin' nutso.

quote:

Neither can I. It's freakin' nutso.

You guys just don't get it. Somebody said it in another thread.

Part of being able to protect the public means popping a few innocent citizens. If they can't over react, then they may die, and if they all die, there won't be anybody around to protect us.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Here's the thing. All we know at this point is that a dude was shot at the wrong house. That is it.

Every bit in this is speculation, very few facts.

Does it look bad? Yes, it does.

jljones, I picked out the most relevant things in your post. Cherry picking if you will, but I feel that it gets my point across the best.

You stated the most obvious fact and probably the most important. The dude was shot and killed in his house. Whether he had a gun on him, close to him, or whether he had one at all is not an issue that I care about. He was well within his rights as a citizen/resident (not sure which actually applies here) to have a gun inside of his home for protection. That is a very simple human right that I am sure we can all agree on. Now back to the story...He was killed inside his home. The police were the ones that killed this man. Those are the facts that we have. There is a bunch of speculation in this story and I will agree with you on that, BUT there is that one pesky fact, the only fact that matters....That one where the WRONG DUDE GOT KILLED BY POLICE IN THE WRONG HOUSE. Anything outside of this is trying to bury the shit with little technicalities like "oh, he had a gun pointed at a cop" or some other excuse for a bad shoot. Why shouldn't this victim have been armed? Is this not what we espouse on this forum? To protect ourselves?

Here's my problem with the whole situation. The guy had no reason to expect the police at his home, much less trying to enter it forcibly! He wasn't a shithead thug with a sheet of convictions. He wasn't wanted for even the smallest offense, yet he was shot and killed by the police...in his home. His crime? Not one. Nothing. Police officers majorly fucked up and here Sigforum is debating whether it was a good shoot or not. I just can't understand.

We are a society that enjoys our freedoms. Freedom from fear of the police is one. I can't think of any place I should feel more safe than in my own home. I should have a reasonable expectation to not have the cops beating on my door at any time of the day unless I have somehow fucked up, right? This is probably how Mr. Lopez felt and now he's getting smeared because some of us can't accept that LEO sometimes fuck up.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
I'd like to point out how perfect I am.

I respond to an average of 100 calls every one of my 4-day work-weeks. Some days it is 30 calls a day.

I usually end up at the wrong location at least once a shift, usually more.

Going to wrong locations based on 911 calls is an EVERY DAY THING.

But, do you shoot and kill someone EVERY DAY at the wrong location? Please don't answer that as I was just trying to get a point across.

No. But it's quite obvious that if I'm ever greeted by someone with a gun pointed at me at one of those calls, you guys would rather read my obituary.

quote:

No. But it's quite obvious that if I'm ever greeted by someone with a gun pointed at me at one of those calls, you guys would rather read my obituary.

Great point which raises a question. Take this story for example. We have an innocent homeowner, and a guy trying to do his job.

Who's life is more important? The innocent homeowner, or the police officer? Would we rather read the homeowner's obituary, or the officer's obituary?

We know that in reality the answer would be neither, but in this case we have to choose.

quote:

No. But it's quite obvious that if I'm ever greeted by someone with a gun pointed at me at one of those calls, you guys would rather read my obituary.

Not me. I appreciate your point of view. Your posting of the three am scenario reveals a lot about how people react. I personally think about all kinds of situations where I might have to defend myself and I develop a plan.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

Neither can I. It's freakin' nutso.

You guys just don't get it. Somebody said it in another thread.

Part of being able to protect the public means popping a few innocent citizens. If they can't over react, then they may die, and if they all die, there won't be anybody around to protect us.

But I've also heard from this group that if the death penalty put one innocent man to death then the death penalty should be avoided...

There's a difference between supporting cops and blindly putting them on a pedestal.

Innocent guy gets shot in his own home by cops who went to the wrong house and it's the fault of the victim?

Amazing how in war zones during patrols the rate of shooting innocent people seems to be much less.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

No. But it's quite obvious that if I'm ever greeted by someone with a gun pointed at me at one of those calls, you guys would rather read my obituary.

Great point which raises a question. Take this story for example. We have an innocent homeowner, and a guy trying to do his job.

Who's life is more important? The innocent homeowner, or the police officer? Would we rather read the homeowner's obituary, or the officer's obituary?

We know that in reality the answer would be neither, but in this case we have to choose.

No. To me the point boils down to this: To what parameters is it a good decision to answer the door by pointing a gun at the person on the other side?

Holding a gun down by your side, unseen-understandable. But pointing it at your neighbor? The UPS man? Jehovah's witnesses? Are you going to shoot someone just because they are knocking on your door??????? That's not even legal in TEXAS. If the shooter had not been a cop, but a pizza delivery guy who approached the wrong door and was faced with a gun, and shot, would the conversation be the same? Would there even BE a conversation?

Answering the door by pointing your gun at someone is A) not legal, and B) instigating a shooting, cop or not.

Give me different parameters...that the cops were plainclothes, kicking in the door unannounced, and I'll buy in. But that's not what I'm reading.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

There is no indication that this was either a no-knock warrant, or asset forfeiture.

If the officers went to a house and were greeted by a man pointing a gun at them, which may or may not be what happened, it is hard to fault them for defending themselves.

Yeah, not to mention the charging pit bull. Mobile home park in Southhaven, probably a little sketchy. All the facts are not out. I recall a case in which SWAT got the wrong house and the homeowner thinking it was a break in decided to clear the house with his AR 15. It is situations like this that all homeowners need to think about.

I, as a homeowner and law abiding citizen, will never think twice about defending myself, my family, and my home against intruders. That fact should make law enforcement officers think and make damn sure they have the right house.

I guess I missed it, but what time did this occur?

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

No. To me the point boils down to this: To what parameters is it a good decision to answer the door by pointing a gun at the person on the other side?

Holding a gun down by your side, unseen-understandable. But pointing it at your neighbor? The UPS man? Jehovah's witnesses? Are you going to shoot someone just because they are knocking on your door??????? That's not even legal in TEXAS. If the shooter had not been a cop, but a pizza delivery guy who approached the wrong door and was faced with a gun, and shot, would the conversation be the same? Would there even BE a conversation?

Answering the door by pointing your gun at someone is A) not legal, and B) instigating a shooting, cop or not.

Give me different parameters...that the cops were plainclothes, kicking in the door unannounced, and I'll buy in. But that's not what I'm reading.

So, you are 100% certain that this fella answered his door and stuck the barrel of his gun out trying to ward off whatever evil doers were trying to come into his home?

There is no evidence to support this other than the statement given by the police officers. The same statement that said the dog was shot outside of the home, yet there was no blood evidence of such an occurrence. Then, there are neighbors that have gone on record that there were no verbal commands given before the shooting began. You don't typically put yourself in a position to lie, especially to investigators, so why should these neighbors be any different.

There has been a lot of rah-rah, unapologetic-ally supporting the police officers here on this forum: giving them the benefit of the doubt in many situations where the rest of us might not see/imagine how things "really" unfold when shit goes wrong. I get it, you see things differently. But so do we, and there are a few here that are seeing ourselves in this very situation. Would the outcome be the same for us? Don't know, hope to never find out. What I do know, is that I don't want to be in either position.

In Iraq, we had nighttime snatch & grabs. Before we started any mission, our intel had to be spot on! Like less than 0% chance of error, good. Why? Because instead of getting the bad guy and making the world better, we may have killed a local priest or school teacher and fucked all relations with those we were there to help. Imagine the outcry if this had happened in Baghdad circa 2003! Shit-storm of epic proportions.

The reason so many here are a little pissed about the situation is that a TRULY innocent man was gunned down, through the front door of his home by police at the wrong house. This is a colossal fuck up by the PD. They need to own it. Take the responsibility for killing the guy and move on.

I will reiterate a point I made earlier. I, as a property owner, citizen, and human being; living in the United States of America with protections given to me by the Constitution have a reasonable expectation to not be afraid....of anything, especially the police. There are so many problems stemming from this incident and those that are defending it, that I honestly cannot comprehend. It's almost like I am back in the United Airlines thread arguing with the pilots. Excuses like a grade school kid caught stealing a candy bar. There is no justification for what happened here, plain and simple!

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Right on track

Yes indeed.

Following the typical pattern.

If you have an agenda you need to push, then the media is right when it supports your agenda, and wrong when it doesn't.

You all have fun.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

No. To me the point boils down to this: To what parameters is it a good decision to answer the door by pointing a gun at the person on the other side?

Holding a gun down by your side, unseen-understandable. But pointing it at your neighbor? The UPS man? Jehovah's witnesses? Are you going to shoot someone just because they are knocking on your door??????? That's not even legal in TEXAS. If the shooter had not been a cop, but a pizza delivery guy who approached the wrong door and was faced with a gun, and shot, would the conversation be the same? Would there even BE a conversation?

Answering the door by pointing your gun at someone is A) not legal, and B) instigating a shooting, cop or not.

Give me different parameters...that the cops were plainclothes, kicking in the door unannounced, and I'll buy in. But that's not what I'm reading.

So, you are 100% certain that this fella answered his door and stuck the barrel of his gun out trying to ward off whatever evil doers were trying to come into his home?...

You make a good point.

Looking at this incident vs the Minneapolis shooting I think there may be a double standard. In MN many here were very willing to withhold judgement, we don't have all the facts, innocent until proven guilty (for the officer, not for the dead person). But here some of the same voices grab questionable facts that support what they have already decided, that the now dead person screwed up.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
No. To me the point boils down to this: To what parameters is it a good decision to answer the door by pointing a gun at the person on the other side?

Holding a gun down by your side, unseen-understandable. But pointing it at your neighbor? The UPS man? Jehovah's witnesses? Are you going to shoot someone just because they are knocking on your door??????? That's not even legal in TEXAS. If the shooter had not been a cop, but a pizza delivery guy who approached the wrong door and was faced with a gun, and shot, would the conversation be the same? Would there even BE a conversation?

Answering the door by pointing your gun at someone is A) not legal, and B) instigating a shooting, cop or not.

Give me different parameters...that the cops were plainclothes, kicking in the door unannounced, and I'll buy in. But that's not what I'm reading.

There is so much logic in this post, the forum is about to explode. If the cop bashers in this thread cant read this post, and all the knowledge and common sense within, and understand it, then you cant help them.

The cop bashers in this thread sound like the fucking morons who were defending Treyvon Martin. "He was only walking in the neighborhood. He only had skittles. That Hispanic white racist dun killed him for no reason."

If the cops shot an unarmed man in his home, then they should be punished. If they shot a man that was pointing a gun at them, then they should be found 100% justified. The address doesn't fucking matter. Just like the skittles doesn't fucking matter. You dont point guns at people. Period.



Lets all watch this for some common sense approach to the police. A good reminder for the folks that think its a good idea to point a gun out the door at cops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

No. To me the point boils down to this: To what parameters is it a good decision to answer the door by pointing a gun at the person on the other side?

Holding a gun down by your side, unseen-understandable. But pointing it at your neighbor? The UPS man? Jehovah's witnesses? Are you going to shoot someone just because they are knocking on your door??????? That's not even legal in TEXAS. If the shooter had not been a cop, but a pizza delivery guy who approached the wrong door and was faced with a gun, and shot, would the conversation be the same? Would there even BE a conversation?

Answering the door by pointing your gun at someone is A) not legal, and B) instigating a shooting, cop or not.

Give me different parameters...that the cops were plainclothes, kicking in the door unannounced, and I'll buy in. But that's not what I'm reading.

So, you are 100% certain that this fella answered his door and stuck the barrel of his gun out trying to ward off whatever evil doers were trying to come into his home?...

You make a good point.

Looking at this incident vs the Minneapolis shooting I think there may be a double standard. In MN many here were very willing to withhold judgement, we don't have all the facts, innocent until proven guilty (for the officer, not for the dead person). But here some of the same voices grab questionable facts that support what they have already decided, that the now dead person screwed up.

You missed that some people are very consistent in their double standards. There are. The ones that refuse to believe anything the media puts out, and then are more than willing to believe an article like this as genuine fact. And when the facts do come out one of two things happen. They slink as far away from the thread as they can, or they scream "cover up" because they facts didn't stand with the position they chose. Rarely, if ever, do the facts meet the standard to what the article was written on. There are a few cases that they are dead on, but in my 10 years on the forum, they are a handful, and these articles are a plenty.

Then there is the consistency of those who introduce things in each and every thread that the facts, or even the article itself just doesn't support. Then the same people tend to demand facts when it doesn't suit their needs. It is full never let a crisis go to waste mode. Asset forfeiture? Check. No knock warrants? Check. SWAT? Check. In every media account, if taken at face value, nothing supports any of that. But, we got to get it in and not miss the opportunity. It's sorta funny, I just don't see the ones crying about a double standard toning any of those posters down. Why you have to wonder? But, it supports the position that they also support. It's easier to try to seem witty to the base than it is to attempt to keep a topic actually on track.

There is the consistency that speculation can only be a one way street. You've got posters that are upset that some here are implying that he pointed a gun at the officers (as that is at least in the article on the police account). But, the very same people are assuming that he didn't because that's what the attorney stated. Irony much?

Then there is the consistency that anyone who doesn't toe the line is supporting the shooting of this person. I said several pages ago, I really have no opinion until I see some facts. I am more than willing to condemn people if they truly screwed up. I pointed out that I give gun owners the same breaks until they are convicted of the accusations they are accused of in some article. Most of what goes on in this thread I do not support. You have posters that are claiming that this dampens their support of their local cops. Really? Something that happened several states away dampens your support? Have to tell you, if thats the case, there wasn't much support to begin with.

So, yeah, there are lots of double standards going on here. It's just we seem to only want to look at one side of the street, and then bash the other side for gaming the same conduct.

These threads come and go. Some act as if they can win a free toaster if they jump fast enough to conclusions. Or if they can introduce stuff into the thread that the half baked article doesn't even mention. Even back during the threads about the Michael Brown shooting, I with held forming an opinion until the facts began to trickle out. The Brown shooting looked bad. But, what did we learn from it. Things aren't often what the media reports it to be. That is a lesson we learn every day from the media. Choose wisely. If I am to be villianized for that, so be it. I am actually good with that. If people want to retort that I am having a double standard, because that is the only response that they have, I'm good with that. I've got wide shoulders. I don't believe that all that are posting from the pitchforks and torches perspective are anti-cop. Matter of fact, I'd venture to say only a couple of repeat offenders are. I don't view them as such. Just like I don't think the rest are pro-cop in their views automatically just because of where they work.

We shall see.

But, yes. This thread is FULL of double standards.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead_Eye:
In theory, if a SWAT team storms the wrong house and the homeowner shoots first and kills one or more police officers and manages to survive the ordeal, what happens to the homeowner?

The fucker gets paid lots of money with the right attorney!

This will continue to happen until each and every officer involved in each part of the case from the beginning up until the part where you fill out the most important (address and shit for the judge to sign off justifying your creds) and then you triple check the address and shit again before you bust in on the wrong house!

You can't rewind a fuckup!

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:...
You missed that some people are very consistent in their double standards....This thread is FULL of double standards.

Mr Jones.

You make good sense here. Thank you.

And I make a conscious effort to not have any double standards myself (admittedly, I am not always successful which is an indication I still need to make changes).