PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)

Jesus I wish they would get their fkn heads out of their asses and look after these people that have served. Pisses me off. If they don't, it won't be long and the Vietnam Nam suicide stats will be blown off the fkn map. Recognize the disorder and do something about it. So many fucked up people coming back from this war sick and they are being written off as nut cases.




http://www.whyprohibition.ca/b...al-marijuana-program

Smells, flashing lights out of the corner of my eye, odd metallic clicking sounds, oh yeah.

Stats like that always make me wonder. Viet Nam vets discharges date to 1960 or so with the numbers getting larger through 1972 and then tailing off through 1974. That makes 50 years of accumulated data, averaging 2,000 suicides a year, yes I know it won’t average like that but I’m not doing this for a living, just thnking.

I think it is likely that if those suicides were normed against similarly aged males with similar educations, race and occupation that you would find a similar number. I think that is especially likely if you looked at the stats beginning about two years after discharge when one should expect the critical level of fucked-upness to subside.

I’m not saying it isn’t tragic, I’m saying it probably isn’t all that abnormal. And I think it is interesting to note that about the time that Viet Nam vets gained a modicum of social acceptance and weren’t seen as baby raping nun killers they pretty much immediately became traumatized non-hackers that were suitable for holding down the grass at over-passes and intersections across America.

I’m open to new information but my cynic gene kicks in with this kind of stuff.

There was nothing in that country that we needed worth that many American lives.

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There was nothing in that country that we needed worth that many American lives.

A lot of people thought that in the summer of love too.

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Originally posted by wishfull thinker:

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There was nothing in that country that we needed worth that many American lives.

A lot of people thought that in the summer of love too.

I'm not a pot smoking hippie by any means, but as I get older I think I might one day agree with this. It's one thing for a volunteer army to go whoop some terrorist ass after we were attacked on our own soil, but quite another to draft thousands and send them to their deaths against their will in a shithole in a decades old situation that had already been lost by several other "colonizing" countries.

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...It's one thing for a volunteer army to go whoop some terrorist ass after we were attacked on our own soil, but quite another to draft thousands and send them to their deaths against their will in a shithole in a decades old situation that had already been lost by several other "colonizing" countries.

We didn't have a volunteer force, that improvement in our national character was brought to us courtesey of the Viet Nam war; and as they say, you fight the war yo are given with the army you have. And as to 'colonizing' I don't follow; there was nothing colonial in the enterprise of the USA. And as to already having been lost, it wasn't 'already lost' until the political class decided we needed to leave.
As to what I will think as I get older, the only clue I have is that as I see the political class and half the country dithering over Afghanistan I can't help but think at some point we have to figure that if we aren't willing to commit to an obtainable objective and commit the resources necessary to gain that objective then we need need to stay at home.

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Originally posted by chongosuerte:

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Originally posted by wishfull thinker:

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There was nothing in that country that we needed worth that many American lives.

A lot of people thought that in the summer of love too.

I'm not a pot smoking hippie by any means, but as I get older I think I might one day agree with this. It's one thing for a volunteer army to go whoop some terrorist ass after we were attacked on our own soil, but quite another to draft thousands and send them to their deaths against their will in a shithole in a decades old situation that had already been lost by several other "colonizing" countries.

I agree with you. I don't think there was anything in Vietnam that warranted so many American lives.

I also think we screwed up in the way we fought that war by trying to use the minimal amount of resources possible. I see the current administration doing the same minimalist approach in A-stan right now.

I'm certainly not a "peace, love, and dope" hippie, but i question our involvement in that war.

Kevin

I somtimes wonder if my 84 y.o.. moms dementia is some sort of blessing.
As an aid in a Vets hospital for many years ,she saw drunks from WW2, Korea and V.N.,

she got tore up on a regular basis over either the brave solders with alcaholism or p.t.s.d.

She 'd often comment that the ones with missing limbs had somthing tangeble to over come and they'd be up and running in only a short while.

But the people that couldn't see their problems or visualize it had the hardest time.

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if we aren't willing to commit to an obtainable objective and commit the resources necessary to gain that objective then we need need to stay at home

I think the key here is "obtainable objective". Don't make it too abstract (like "nation building" or "US style democracy"). Make it a real military-type goal (kick those asses, take that hill, etc.) and our guys will do just swell. Unfortunately, our military isn't there just to defend, or to right wrongs, but as a tool of international relations; and its civilian masters should only apply that "hammer" where a hammer is the appropriate tool.

Back to the contention of the original post - Most of the guys I know (my contemporaries) who were in real combat in VN are pretty fucked up.

Have a few relatives that served in Vietnam. Although they were effected by what they experienced, none have killed themselves or anyone else.

Wouldn't you think that a war that is legislated instead of fought has the potential to leave a soldier to constantly question the "why and how" of his actions?

I personally think that would leave too much to contemplate after all is said and done.

In WW2 we had a defined objective, and we left the soldiers to do the soldiering. Vietnam changed that by allowing the legislators to dictate the rules of war, regardless of their experience in the war. When you are second guessed at every decision your are forced to make, you'll eventually second guess yourself.

I guess this is a mini-rant, but it can best be summed up as "War isn't popular, why do we let popular opinion dictate it?"

Unfortunately it wasn't fully understood, diagnosed, or treated back then, and now we are seeing the result of it.

HOPEFULLY, we are doing better this time with our veterans.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
It's one thing for a volunteer army to go whoop some terrorist ass after we were attacked on our own soil, but quite another to draft thousands and send them to their deaths against their will in a shithole in a decades old situation that had already been lost by several other "colonizing" countries.

PTSD was not called that until recently, yet it was and is a disorder from all conflicts.

When there was a reason, or a defined purpose, it seemed to help, psychologically. Viet Nam was different, we weren't colonizing, the stated goal was to stop communism, it was called the Domino Theory. If you stopped it in one country you could stop the foothold in the bordering countries. I don't think many people knew or cared about that geopolitical theory, since it was on the other side of the world.


Rightwire put it best.

The same thing is happening to our iraqi and afghan vets today. They wont handle PSSD like they should. War is a horrable thing and they should know its goin to have an effect on people.

My FIL was killed in Vietnam. His attitude was that he was doing an important job, fighting for freedom in general.

Two things,bear with me, this is PTSD related, need to lay basis first. First we never lost the VN war the POT SMOKING HIPPIES BACK HERE DID!!! Read Gen Giap's book, now being used by AQ to beat us! He was ready to give it up in about 71-72. But watching our media coverage of the Anti-war protests he decided our people back home would defeat us where his troops never could! He was taking tremendous losses and we never lost a battle. But he saw that if he could just hold on and bloody us up bad, our government would turn tail and run. Side note, why we left so many MIA behind, KissingerAss started the POW negotiations by giving the NVA a list of a few hundred POW/MIA. He stated we knew these people had been seen to have been captured/taken and demanded a complete accounting. No brainer, the NVA worked off that list and look how many we got back? How many Weapons officers that were shot down went straight to Russia for interogation? Ever hear of any POW that said he had been sent to Russia or China and sent back to Viet Nam, of course not. Remember the Marine who came back in 82 I believe, McHenry I think his name was? Gonna Court Martial him, then all of a sudden all was dropped, why. Could it be they made a deal to shut him up since they could not eliminate him after all the publicity? He knew to much about the who's and where's of MIA/POW's?
OK, how does this tie in to PTSD, I am one of very few out of my Platoon who has had a normal life after beating the bottle in 82. Most are 100% VA PTSD, why? WWII we called it "Shell Shock" then,a lot came home with it but most fought through it and led normal lives. Korean War Vets were a little worse off but most still fought through it. Then came Viet Nam, I'll use my case for example. Joined Nov 64, Army, AirBorne, went to Okinawa from Jump School, May 65 went TDY to RVN as first Army combat unit, came home May 66 to a hero's welcome. Got out a few years in 67, went back in 69, 1049'd to Nam in 70. Came home in 71 to "Baby Killer" welcome, bad but not yet spit on. Went back Aug 72 till the POW's came home in Mar 73. I was on the JMC, Joint Military Commision that coordinated the POW release, stationed at My Tho and later at Phan Thiet. This time going home was interesting, they would not let 2 soldiers from the same home of records or Unit go from same release point. This was so we were outnumbered by they hippies and would be less likely to fight back when they spit on/harrassed us. Now what does this do to your head? I saw three different home comings, hero, bum but not bad and "War Criminal". My Mom even got a call once that I was dead (hippies did that alot), she was in hell for days till they found me and I could get in touch with her. I had flash backs, thought I was nuts for years, then one day I was watching "Police Story". The cop goes in room, 16 year old jumps up from behind bed with gun, cop kills him and goes on drinking guilt trip. That episode changed my life, I thought about my past, "I must be nuts cause I would not have felt remorse about that turd". Then I realized I was not the nut, Society had gone nuts. If I had not done what I had, I probably would not be here today. I went to Army Shrink once about my drinking and stuff, said Valium 4 times a day, no thanks, kept drinking. Several of my friends are all screwed up on VA head drugs, what kind of life is that? One buddy here in Tucson who was also 17 when serving with the "Herd" now has guilt trips about some of our firefights with the Herd. We all have survivor guilt, Why me? I remember Cordell Spencer showing me a picture of his new baby he just got at mail call before we went on "Hump". He died bravely, most decent man, never a bad word out of his mouth. Do I have PTSD, maybe, don't put up with BS, went through many jobs till in my 30's I quit drinking a faced the ghosts.
Now the point of this post, the Troops from Iraq and Afganastan are going through Nam II. They saw their buddies die or get blown up, they were wounded but it was for a cause they believed in and the Country was behind them, their CIC was behind them. Then the hippies/ayers types got stronger and stronger. Now they see a gutless CIC and all getting thrown out in the name of politics. Yes "Shell Shock" is one form of PTSD but seeing all you believed in and gave so much for, your comrads lives and limbs, all for naught. That is also a hideiuos form of PTSD.
We need to learn that wars are seldom popular, sometimes not even for the right reasons, but once we go in it should be united, hard and only one outcome, Total and Complete Victory. We worry to much about being liked by people that will never like us, those people still understand fear! When they see weakness at the top they will win if "We the People" let them.

My older brother never speaks of his time in vietnam. He only says with contempt, "my buddies died over there", nothing else.

Many of my friends served and I just missed having to by a bit. I was going to enlist after High School as the men in my family always have in time of war.

One of my veteran friends mentioned something to me that I later foud a basis for. His exact words aren't important but maybe the example I saw will explain;

There was an "incident" in my county at the end of the war where in two brothers were killed by LE during the commission of a series of very serious crimes. The Sheriff was himself a Korean War vet and had tried to cut them slack when they first got back.

After it all was over, the family, understandably, tried to deal with the grief by blaming the War for the boy's drug and behavior problems. Eveyone politely ignored the fact that the boys were in constant trouble before they went in the service for drug and behavior problems and had, in fact, been given the "jail or Army?" choice by a judge.

It has left me to wonder, not question anyone's PTSD problems at all, but wonder how many of the post war problems may have existed and presented without the war?

Seems that the bombers worked pretty well for Nixon in getting the enemy to the negotiating table, and that was against a foe in tough terrain as well.
Where the hell are our bombers in this war ? It would save a lot of our troops from going through this today.