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posted
I haven't purchased a Sig pistol in a while. Of my "classic" P-series pistols, only my P220ST has a rail.

Why is it that just about every currently offered pistol, that is not a 1911/sub compact/pocket pistol, seems to be primarily offered with a rail? How many railed pistols does one person need? I have a light on (1) home defense pistol. I don't need a light on every pistol that I own, and I really don't want to (re-)buy "rail" versions of every holster that I already own.
 
Posts: 106 | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of pbramlett
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I'm with you. I've got one handgun with a light and one rifle. My carry gun doesn't need a light. I think rails are ugly anyway and all this tacticool bullshit is getting old.


Regards,

P.
 
Posts: 420 | Location: Alabama | Registered: May 20, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Persian
Picture of PPGMD
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quote:
Originally posted by jlb226:
Why is it that just about every currently offered pistol, that is not a 1911/sub compact/pocket pistol, seems to be primarily offered with a rail?


Well this will be easy.

Virtually every pistol designed (outside the ones you identified) are either meant to be sold to LE/MIL agencies, or based off a designs meant to go to those agencies. LE/MIL agencies won't consider a pistol that doesn't have an accessory rail.


-------
A turbo: Exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens, and you go faster.

Mr. Doom and Gloom
"King in the north!"
"Slow is smooth... and also slow.
 
Posts: 20052 | Location: At the wall | Registered: February 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Winner
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:
quote:
Originally posted by jlb226:
Why is it that just about every currently offered pistol, that is not a 1911/sub compact/pocket pistol, seems to be primarily offered with a rail?


Well this will be easy.

Virtually every pistol designed (outside the ones you identified) are either meant to be sold to LE/MIL agencies, or based off a designs meant to go to those agencies. LE/MIL agencies won't consider a pistol that doesn't have an accessory rail.


I can somewhat begrudgingly accept that, on a new design like the P320, where it has always come with a rail. On the "classic" P220 based pistols (P22[0,6,8,9]), that were designed before rails were en vogue, I have a harder time accepting that explanation. If they can offer their 1911s in both railed and non-railed versions, why not these as well (in quantity)? Or at least offer a lower profile rail that fits into the original profile of the gun (like some Austrian plastic pistol manufacturer). They could offer them as the "Curmudgeon" special edition series.
 
Posts: 106 | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
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1. Not everyone uses the pistol you selected as the only Home Defense pistol worth having.

2. Creating two versions of a pistol lower for every model would ad significant cost to the manufacturer in all aspects, and is not a smart business practice.


If you want non-railed guns, there are plenty to choose from.

The decision to produce railed guns is a marketing issue and a numbers game.

You haven't purchased a pistol in a while, so you are not "voting" for market share.

You don't have to like it, but it is a supply and demand, what sells is what gets made.

And why so many manufactures drop models that are not selling, and produce that which are being bought.




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Posts: 34982 | Location: My Happy Little Tire Swing | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Delusions of Adequacy
Picture of zoom6zoom
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Sometimes it's just silly, though. I've been trying to decide if I want to try to mill the rail off my Rhino revolver.




I have my own style of humor. I call it Snarkasm.
 
Posts: 15664 | Location: Virginia | Registered: June 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Winner
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey:
1. Not everyone uses the pistol you selected as the only Home Defense pistol worth having.

2. Creating two versions of a pistol lower for every model would ad significant cost to the manufacturer in all aspects, and is not a smart business practice.


If you want non-railed guns, there are plenty to choose from.

The decision to produce railed guns is a marketing issue and a numbers game.

You haven't purchased a pistol in a while, so you are not "voting" for market share.

You don't have to like it, but it is a supply and demand, what sells is what gets made.

And why so many manufactures drop models that are not selling, and produce that which are being bought.


True, not everyone chooses the same home defense pistol (mine is not a SIG), and I guess there are those that own only one (or two) pistol(s) that serve multiple roles.

Creating or manufacturing? They already have the design. As for manufacturing, they already make multiple frame variations (enhanced w/ beavertail for example). I suspect it would be fairly simple to CNC the rail off during manufacturing. Keeping an additional model in inventory, that doesn't match what was ordered, is the real issue, I suspect.

Yes, there are still some non-railed guns available, and I will continue to support them with my $.

Yes it is a marketing decision. Although, I do have to wonder what percentage of railed pistols that are sold, actually have something mounted to the rail.

I didn't say I haven't purchased a pistol in a while, I said I hadn't purchased a SIG pistol in a while. The majority of my SIGs have folded slides and west German stamps, but I do have a half dozen or so later models as well. Semi-custom 1911 makers still offer plenty of options w/o rails.

I understand that they are in business to make money, and they are going to try to market the latest trend that they think is going to sell.

Much like the majority of manufacturing moving overseas (China), I don't have to like it, but I understand that in today's market it is what makes good economic sense for the company.

I'm not really looking to start a change.org petition, to demand that SIG bring the non-railed P-series versions back. I'm just expressing my displeasure with what seems to be the trend of "rails on everything", whether you want/need them or not. I guess it just goes with getting older, owning too many pistols/holsters, and not needing a light/laser (or bayonet, or whatever else is going on all of these rails) on everything.
 
Posts: 106 | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
Picture of egregore
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PPGMD:


Well this will be easy.

Virtually every pistol designed (outside the ones you identified) are either meant to be sold to LE/MIL agencies, or based off a designs meant to go to those agencies. LE/MIL agencies won't consider a pistol that doesn't have an accessory rail.

OK. But why are they often on the compact and even sub-compact versions of these guns, or on guns not in common usage by LE/MIL? What such agency uses, for example, a S&W M&P compact, a subcompact P320, a Kel-Tec PF9?

But with all that being said, rails don't really hurt anything, and I suppose I'd rather have it and not need it than the reverse. A circumstance might arise where I want to hang a light off my gun, or wish I had one, some day. So I have learned, a little grudgingly, to accept them.


 
Posts: 18432 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
You mean likke my XDs 45?
 
Posts: 4200 | Registered: August 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Persian
Picture of PPGMD
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jlb226:
I can somewhat begrudgingly accept that, on a new design like the P320, where it has always come with a rail. On the "classic" P220 based pistols (P22[0,6,8,9]), that were designed before rails were en vogue, I have a harder time accepting that explanation. If they can offer their 1911s in both railed and non-railed versions, why not these as well (in quantity)? Or at least offer a lower profile rail that fits into the original profile of the gun (like some Austrian plastic pistol manufacturer). They could offer them as the "Curmudgeon" special edition series.


Again another easy answer. Because the classic P series were designed as service pistols so they had to evolve with the market.

There are non-railed versions produced here and there for the limited market that doesn't need or want a rail.

The Glock rail isn't a very good rail IMO. It often requires special adapters to get a standardize setup to work with it particularly for high accuracy items like lasers.


-------
A turbo: Exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens, and you go faster.

Mr. Doom and Gloom
"King in the north!"
"Slow is smooth... and also slow.
 
Posts: 20052 | Location: At the wall | Registered: February 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jlb226:

Creating or manufacturing? They already have the design. As for manufacturing, they already make multiple frame variations (enhanced w/ beavertail for example). I suspect it would be fairly simple to CNC the rail off during manufacturing. Keeping an additional model in inventory, that doesn't match what was ordered, is the real issue, I suspect.



What you suggest is neither simple, nor cheap. For such a low-popularity option, it would be dumb for a mfg to do.
See what someone would charge to 'CNC the rail off', I think at even production rate$, your wallet would snap shut, if not have a heart attack.
I utilize exactly 0 of the pistol rails I have. I don't find them bothersome, annoying or really even think about them. They're just there, and if I ever pony up the cash for a light, my bedside pistol will have one on it.
When the P220 was designed, rail-mounted anything didn't exist. The design was modernized to allow for options. It doesn't exactly take away anything from a non-railed version, except a bit of weight. I don't see what the controversy is.
 
Posts: 2147 | Location: IN | Registered: January 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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I'm sensing a business opportunity for someone with a CNC mill and the ability to refinish frames...




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15520 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Picture of ChuckFinley
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Are the pistols for caressing or for function?

I understand some may be prettier without a rail, and I prefer the two hand approach with flashlight as to not reveal exactly from where I am coming by my flashlight, but the truth is that the rail doesn't affect the balance or performance so give me the lower production cost so that I don't pay extra for my tools. That is, after all, what they are, purpose built tools.




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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
 
Posts: 4105 | Location: District 12 | Registered: June 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Winner
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by snidera:
quote:
Originally posted by jlb226:

Creating or manufacturing? They already have the design. As for manufacturing, they already make multiple frame variations (enhanced w/ beavertail for example). I suspect it would be fairly simple to CNC the rail off during manufacturing. Keeping an additional model in inventory, that doesn't match what was ordered, is the real issue, I suspect.



What you suggest is neither simple, nor cheap. For such a low-popularity option, it would be dumb for a mfg to do.
See what someone would charge to 'CNC the rail off', I think at even production rate$, your wallet would snap shut, if not have a heart attack.
I utilize exactly 0 of the pistol rails I have. I don't find them bothersome, annoying or really even think about them. They're just there, and if I ever pony up the cash for a light, my bedside pistol will have one on it.
When the P220 was designed, rail-mounted anything didn't exist. The design was modernized to allow for options. It doesn't exactly take away anything from a non-railed version, except a bit of weight. I don't see what the controversy is.


So, what exactly am I missing, about the complexities and costs of removing a little extra material off of a frame, while it is already in a CNC mill being finished?

https://youtu.be/gAhcU_NfYQA?t=203
 
Posts: 106 | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Winner
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ChuckFinley:
Are the pistols for caressing or for function?

I understand some may be prettier without a rail, and I prefer the two hand approach with flashlight as to not reveal exactly from where I am coming by my flashlight, but the truth is that the rail doesn't affect the balance or performance so give me the lower production cost so that I don't pay extra for my tools. That is, after all, what they are, purpose built tools.


It's partially aesthetics. I also like to put some of my tools in rather nice leather holsters. The thought of rebuying holsters, just to accommodate a rail, that I don't intend to use, is kind of annoying.
 
Posts: 106 | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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I think this is an issue where the market has spoken. For service / non-tiny CCW / HD pistols, a rail is now just an expected feature. Rail mounted accessories are getting more and more popular.

As Sigmonkey said, it doesn't pay for the manufacturers to build two versions of each frame. If you don't need the rail you don't have to use it. On a functional basis, having it there and not using it doesn't cost you anything.
 
Posts: 16936 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Picture of ChuckFinley
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quote:
Originally posted

It's partially aesthetics. I also like to put some of my tools in rather nice leather holsters. The thought of rebuying holsters, just to accommodate a rail, that I don't intend to use, is kind of annoying.


I do understand and agree with the frustration over holsters.




_________________________
NRA Endowment Member
_________________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
 
Posts: 4105 | Location: District 12 | Registered: June 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be Careful What You Wish For...
Picture of Monk
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1911s with a rail are an abomination.


____________________________________________________________

Georgeair: "...looking around my house this morning, it's not easily defended for long by two people in the event of real anarchy. The entryways might be slick for the latecomers though...."
 
Posts: 11610 | Location: Hoisting the colors in a strange land | Registered: February 09, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Winner
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
I think this is an issue where the market has spoken. For service / non-tiny CCW / HD pistols, a rail is now just an expected feature. Rail mounted accessories are getting more and more popular.

As Sigmonkey said, it doesn't pay for the manufacturers to build two versions of each frame. If you don't need the rail you don't have to use it. On a functional basis, having it there and not using it doesn't cost you anything.


Yes, just as the market has spoken about preferring the prices of products manufactured in China. I don't expect companies to maintain two production lines, one in the US and one in China, just to accommodate those that would prefer to purchase a US made item. It just wouldn't make sense. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it though.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jlb226,
 
Posts: 106 | Registered: August 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A rail is a deal killer for me. They are even uglier than front cocking serrations. Yes, they are functional, they show the bad guy where to shoot . At least, that was the thinking back in the day. Why that thinking has changed, I'm not sure.
 
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