SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  What's Your Deal!    Calling Police to deal with your shortcomings as an educator/administrator
Page 1 2 3 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Calling Police to deal with your shortcomings as an educator/administrator Login/Join 
Help! Help!
I'm being repressed!

Picture of Skull Leader
posted
This really pisses me off.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne...ki7irqe74-story.html

6 year old threw a tantrum and kicked and punched some school employees. The police were called and this little girl is now scarred/scared by/of the police because some administrators can't handle a six year old!

Are there some circumstances where an arrest would be appropriate? Sure, but this was obviously not one of them!

Do your own dirty work! Stop making police the bad guys!
 
Posts: 10287 | Location: Big Sky Country | Registered: November 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
posted Hide Post
I'm actually surprised that the officers could/would arrest a 6 year old. In Arkansas, you have to be at least 10 to be charged with a crime. And besides, just because the police are called doesn't mean they have to make an arrest.


And honestly, this is the massive double-edged sword of School Resource Officers. I've dealt with it myself.

After the rise in school shootings, there was a big push to put officers in schools. And SROs have massive additional benefits beyond just active shooter response/deterrence too.

But the big potential downside is that once officers were in schools, the schools started eyeing the officers as a means to enforce school discipline, attempting to foist their responsibilities off on the cops.

Used to be, teachers handled the classroom discipline stuff and administrators (primarily assistant principals) handled the bigger discipline stuff and stuff that happened outside of the classroom. But the availability of SROs also seems to have coincided with a massive upswing in the amount of work that administrators started having to devote to Special Education related issues, government mandated compliance paperwork, etc. So I guess it was a natural instinct for these administrators to see an opportunity to pass the buck on discipline to the newly available officers as a means to free up time for their newly incoming SPED and compliance responsibilities.

It's also a way for the schools to shift the liability for the disciplinary decisions onto someone else, so the furious helicopter parents couldn't blame the schools when their kid got into trouble.

As a result, there's been a huge nationwide upswing in juvenile arrests/citations for school-related issues that in previous years would have been handled in-house as a school discipline issue. Nowadays, if a kid does something like get into a fight at school or yell at a teacher, instead of having an administrator give them detention or a suspension, they often end up getting arrested or ticketed by a cop instead (or additionally).


This is where it requires a solid relationship between the schools and their SROs to have clearly defined roles, without this tendency towards "SRO mission creep" or attempted reliance on SROs as school discipline enforces. And it takes SROs and supervisors who are willing to stand their ground and say "No, that's a school issue, not a police issue... You as the school need to handle that".

(This latter part is complicated by some SROs having their paychecks paid either fully or partially by the schools themselves, which creates a bit of a conflict in situations like that, and can make the SROs feel like they can't tell the schools "No".)
 
Posts: 24351 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I'm actually surprised that the officers could/would arrest a 6 year old. In Arkansas, you have to be at least 10 to be charged with a crime. And besides, just because the police are called doesn't mean they have to make an arrest.


I believe the police officer was fired for making the arrest. At least according to this ... Fox News Article
 
Posts: 182 | Registered: March 08, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Skull Leader:
This really pisses me off.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne...ki7irqe74-story.html

6 year old threw a tantrum and kicked and punched some school employees. The police were called and this little girl is now scarred/scared by/of the police because some administrators can't handle a six year old!

Are there some circumstances where an arrest would be appropriate? Sure, but this was obviously not one of them!

Do your own dirty work! Stop making police the bad guys!



All day, every day.
I get calls like this from multiple schools in my District. We even get calls like that from the "parents".


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 6034 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of 229DAK
posted Hide Post
quote:
The arrest report Turner completed said that a member of the school’s faculty, Beverly Stoute, had requested to press charges against Kaia, something the school has denied.

It would seem someone at the school had to request the SRO/police deal with the 6-y/o. The police wouldn't simply haul off the kid for nothing.

What does Beverly Stoute have to say about all of this?


_________________________________________________________________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Rifle Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer

The afternoon knows what the morning never suspected.
-- Robert Frost
 
Posts: 7470 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Three Generations
of Service
Picture of PHPaul
posted Hide Post
I suspect some of this is on the parents. Not necessarily the specific parents in this situation (tho that's certainly possible) but "parents" in general who have a shit fit if school staff looks at their precious snowflake cross-eyed, much less actually takes steps to control them.

That was a problem when I was associated with schools 20 years ago, I doubt it has improved.




Be careful when following the masses. Sometimes the M is silent.
 
Posts: 12317 | Location: Downeast Maine | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Sometimes the police have to be called in order for child protective services to take over. I've seen cases where the child had to be admitted to a psyche unit and that was the only way it could be done.



"Even if the world were perfect it wouldn't be." ... Yogi Berra
 
Posts: 1314 | Location: York County, VA | Registered: August 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of 229DAK
posted Hide Post
quote:
Kirkland said her granddaughter had sleep apnea, which could cause her to act out in school.

I'm not a doctor, but really? I don't see a clear link. Maybe she's tired all the time due to lack of quality sleep? Or a made up circumstance as an excuse for her actions?

Maybe the article author really means "has" sleep apnea; not "had" (past tense).


_________________________________________________________________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Rifle Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer

The afternoon knows what the morning never suspected.
-- Robert Frost
 
Posts: 7470 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
I'm actually surprised that the officers could/would arrest a 6 year old. In Arkansas, you have to be at least 10 to be charged with a crime. And besides, just because the police are called doesn't mean they have to make an arrest.


And honestly, this is the massive double-edged sword of School Resource Officers. I've dealt with it myself.

After the rise in school shootings, there was a big push to put officers in schools. And SROs have massive additional benefits beyond just active shooter response/deterrence too.

But the big potential downside is that once officers were in schools, the schools started eyeing the officers as a means to enforce school discipline, attempting to foist their responsibilities off on the cops.

Used to be, teachers handled the classroom discipline stuff and administrators (primarily assistant principals) handled the bigger discipline stuff and stuff that happened outside of the classroom. But the availability of SROs also seems to have coincided with a massive upswing in the amount of work that administrators started having to devote to Special Education related issues, government mandated compliance paperwork, etc. So I guess it was a natural instinct for these administrators to see an opportunity to pass the buck on discipline to the newly available officers as a means to free up time for their newly incoming SPED and compliance responsibilities.

It's also a way for the schools to shift the liability for the disciplinary decisions onto someone else, so the furious helicopter parents couldn't blame the schools when their kid got into trouble.

As a result, there's been a huge nationwide upswing in juvenile arrests/citations for school-related issues that in previous years would have been handled in-house as a school discipline issue. Nowadays, if a kid does something like get into a fight at school or yell at a teacher, instead of having an administrator give them detention or a suspension, they often end up getting arrested or ticketed by a cop instead (or additionally).


This is where it requires a solid relationship between the schools and their SROs to have clearly defined roles, without this tendency towards "SRO mission creep" or attempted reliance on SROs as school discipline enforces. And it takes SROs and supervisors who are willing to stand their ground and say "No, that's a school issue, not a police issue... You as the school need to handle that".

(This latter part is complicated by some SROs having their paychecks paid either fully or partially by the schools themselves, which creates a bit of a conflict in situations like that, and can make the SROs feel like they can't tell the schools "No".)


Yep. They keep asking the officers to do more and more that isn’t “cop related”. Our guys have been asked to pick kids up to bring them to school and drive them home too....
 
Posts: 2971 | Registered: January 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not
posted Hide Post
I don't blame the school one bit. The administrator knew what a shit show it could become and he still has his job today. The police officer is now unemployed.

The problem is that no one in society to allowed to correct behavior. Not parents, teachers, principals, police!!!! no one!! I am actually surprised that society hasn't collapsed even more.

If this had happened when I was a kid. the teacher and principal would have slapped me silly. If that didn't have the desired effect your father would have been called and he would have apologized and then whipped your ass again!.

Instead the snowflake is told that the police officer did a bad thing and was fired!!!
 
Posts: 7086 | Location: Bismarck ND | Registered: February 19, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
What he wrote ^^^^^




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
The dominant media is no more "mainstream" than leftists are liberals.
 
Posts: 17626 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Related:
In public, I would quite frequently have parents with younger children come up to me and spout this crap:
"Junior, you better behave or this policeman will put you in jail".
Thats great parenting!
And in the referenced situation, I would not have pinched a 6 year old, no matter who wanted done.


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 9975 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Related:
In public, I would quite frequently have parents with younger children come up to me and spout this crap:
"Junior, you better behave or this policeman will put you in jail".
Thats great parenting!


It's cliche, but my usual response is directed at the kid: "Don't worry, buddy... I don't arrest little kids, just naughty parents."
 
Posts: 24351 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Eye on the
Silver Lining
posted Hide Post
What Ronin wrote. I have some experience with this... my son attends a public school where each year thus far, he’s had a classmate finally removed from the classroom for being a “danger” to others. He’s 7.

I discovered that the teachers are not allowed to touch a child acting out, they actually have to clear all the other kids from the class instead, and call for reinforcements (not necessarily cops, but help to manage the child who has become a “danger”). And they can’t touch unless the child is a danger to itself or others.

I couldn’t fricking imagine. My kid (and the rest of his class) had to sit and watch another throw a shit fit regularly - including hitting and screaming at the teacher(s)- for weeks before they finally had enough documentation of efforts made and pulled the child.

Don’t get me wrong, they shooed all the other kids into a different class when the action really started to get fierce, but still. So my son had basically no schooling for weeks. He walked into a lit fuse on a daily basis, and had to wait to see how the day would play out. Again, he’s 7. And I only found out about the troubles from him over time. Because the teachers aren’t allowed to discuss these things with people who aren’t the parents. Color me pissed, but their hands are tied. When I first went to a meeting to bitch I found out about the many ways in which their hands are tied. And how much worse some other parents whose kids were in upper grades had it. As others have said, it’s a wonder society isn’t worse. No joke.

When I read the article, the child in question had been punching and kicking, not one, but 3 people. Twenty bucks it wasn’t the first time. I don’t care if she was calm when the cops showed, no one deserves to be kicked and punched for trying to teach. If this isn’t handled/managed at a young age, we all know how it’ll progress.

In my day, that kid would’ve been hauled out by the ear or arm down to the principal’s the first time, and if we saw them again, it’d be a miracle. Of course, my 5th grade teacher used to stand troublemakers up against the lockers outside his class, and punch the lockers on either side so we could all hear it and the instigator could get the message in stereo.


__________________________

"Trust, but verify."
 
Posts: 3949 | Registered: October 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Striker in waiting
Picture of BurtonRW
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:
What Ronin wrote. I have some experience with this... my son attends a public school where each year thus far, he’s had a classmate finally removed from the classroom for being a “danger” to others. He’s 7.

I discovered that the teachers are not allowed to touch a child acting out, they actually have to clear all the other kids from the class instead, and call for reinforcements (not necessarily cops, but help to manage the child who has become a “danger”). And they can’t touch unless the child is a danger to itself or others.

I couldn’t fricking imagine. My kid (and the rest of his class) had to sit and watch another throw a shit fit regularly - including hitting and screaming at the teacher(s)- for weeks before they finally had enough documentation of efforts made and pulled the child.

Don’t get me wrong, they shooed all the other kids into a different class when the action really started to get fierce, but still. So my son had basically no schooling for weeks. He walked into a lit fuse on a daily basis, and had to wait to see how the day would play out. Again, he’s 7. And I only found out about the troubles from him over time. Because the teachers aren’t allowed to discuss these things with people who aren’t the parents. Color me pissed, but their hands are tied. When I first went to a meeting to bitch I found out about the many ways in which their hands are tied. And how much worse some other parents whose kids were in upper grades had it. As others have said, it’s a wonder society isn’t worse. No joke.


Nail, meet head.

Ronin and Irreverent have described the legal situation (which is VERY common in MANY schools across this country, including schools in "excellent" districts) perfectly. This plays out daily and when I see a story like this in the news, I wonder to myself why it's of interest. We have dozens of those cases each week, usually without the offender being arrested.

I couldn't count the number of workers' comp claims I have to deal with that are the direct result of teachers or other staff being assaulted by students from elementary through high school. We're talking about claims for physical and/or psychological injuries that cost millions of dollars a year... in my school system alone. That's not an exaggeration.

You can thank progressive academics for the policies and protocols (supported by their legislative and judicial co-conspirators on occasion) that have gotten us to this point.

-Rob,
Associate General Counsel for a very, very large public school system




I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888

A=A
 
Posts: 15346 | Location: Maryland, AA Co. | Registered: March 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Is this not also a product of mainstreaming children with mental handicaps? Me and wife always volunteered to help out when kids were in elementary and middle. I had never experienced the situation of handicapped child with adult “guide” that follow them throughout the day. The child was continually disruptive and later on I learned that was the norm. On bad days it was way worse.

That combined with the inability to “touch” a child is a bad recipe. Removing the child vice removing the rest of class is moronic.
 
Posts: 2591 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Striker in waiting
Picture of BurtonRW
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
Is this not also a product of mainstreaming children with mental handicaps? Me and wife always volunteered to help out when kids were in elementary and middle. I had never experienced the situation of handicapped child with adult “guide” that follow them throughout the day. The child was continually disruptive and later on I learned that was the norm. On bad days it was way worse.


IMO, it's true that mainstreaming has turned out to have disastrous unintended (if not predictable) consequences. However, that's only a small part of the problem.

Students with behavioral problems fall into several categories. Off the top of my head, I'd break it down thusly:

1) The truly mentally handicapped who are in no way responsible for their actions - at least not in the context of what we're discussing here.

2) The "emotionally disturbed" or similar category of students, who don't have a developmental disability (the over-diagnosis of conditions like ADD/ADHD and autism is a subject for another thread), but do qualify for IEPs and other accommodations which simultaneously put them in a protected category while also doing an incredible disservice to those students who truly do need accommodations.

3) The violent, self-centered, ill-mannered, never-disciplined-growing-up, no-respect-for-authority type.

The majority of cases I see involve the third category, although some who start demonstrate those behaviors early enough end up in the second category while they're still in the school system and become virtually untouchable.

We basically adopt the criminal code definition of assault (which is the common law definition in Maryland) and so don't generally consider violent behavior by the truly developmentally disabled (not competent) to constitute assault.

-Rob




I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888

A=A
 
Posts: 15346 | Location: Maryland, AA Co. | Registered: March 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Fair enough.

Still think a “hands off” approach is wrong. Can’t argue with anything you said though.
 
Posts: 2591 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ronin101:
If this had happened when I was a kid. the teacher and principal would have slapped me silly. If that didn't have the desired effect your father would have been called and he would have apologized and then whipped your ass again!


I was well acquainted with the paddle going through elementary and middle school. If you swung at a teacher or coach in the 70's you were looking at a good ass kicking.
 
Posts: 2044 | Registered: September 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Krazeehorse
posted Hide Post
Ronin nailed it. No ability to discipline. My wife taught pre-school at a district south of us where many came from "under-privileged" homes. 3, 4 and 5 year olds. F/U bitch was almost a daily occurrence. Throwing chairs and general tantrums. All they could do pretty much is discuss with the child about making better decisions. So glad she got out of that environment. She disagreed with this arrest. My thoughts are that this was probably a pattern of behavior for this girl and just MAYBE she will be scared straight.


_____________________

When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others. The same thing happens when you're stupid.
 
Posts: 3950 | Location: Ohio | Registered: December 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  What's Your Deal!    Calling Police to deal with your shortcomings as an educator/administrator

© SIGforum 2020