quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Warrant Officers. And also to add to the above the Officer of the Day, who is not always an officer.

Warrants Officers are commissioned officers in the Navy.

And since he stated he was saluting officers and not a Medal of Honor winner (which would be the term I use to describe one, not just an 'officer'), I didn't mention that category...

quote:

Originally posted by S_SIG_S:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
S_SIG_S - Testy testy, are we?

Navhawk - spot on.

This is not the place to point out my grammatic mistakes, it's rather childish. It doesn't reflect well on your almost 7000 post in just over a year. That's my opinion.

What does his number of posts have to do with any of this? It sounds like its YOU are the one that wants to continue this as a pissing match.

At ease you two squids.

I freely admit I wasn't an English major...

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Warrant Officers. And also to add to the above the Officer of the Day, who is not always an officer.

Warrants Officers are commissioned officers in the Navy.

And since he stated he was saluting officers and not a Medal of Honor winner (which would be the term I use to describe one, not just an 'officer'), I didn't mention that category...

Let's not forget Foreign dignitaries


Edit: Removed smiley, no place in a thread about a Fallen Warrior.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
What does his number of posts have to do with any of this? It sounds like its YOU are the one that wants to continue this as a pissing match.

At ease you two squids.

I'm at ease.

Thanks for squaring me away.

Look, salutes say many things between service men that don't pertain to a civilian.

From a subordinate to a superior and BACK they are an acknowledgment of respect, fidelity and responsibility.

From a vet or active service member to a vet, or even between peers, they say: "We've been to the same places, felt the same fears and the same doubts even if the experiences were decades and thousands of miles apart. We are brothers in arms even if we've never before met."

In the battalion I went to DS/DS with we would sketch a salute to other "Dukes" even when in civilian clothes on the town as a non-verbal way of acknowledging each other.

From a Soldier to a fallen comrade they say:"I stood ready to make the sacrifice, but you actually made it. I was ready to give the last full measure, but you actually gave it. You are worthy of the greatest respect and admiration possible. I stand ready to follow your example if called."

Further, saluting when you aren't a member of a profession worthy of rendering a salute is claiming a right and honor you haven't earned. The salute isn't JUST a gesture of respect towards someone, it is a demand of respect FROM someone, an assertion of membership in a select group and a claim upon the collective honor and esteem in which society holds that group, and the esteem with which they regard each other.

A vet would NOT feel honored or thanked if he discovered he was being saluted by a civilian; except police, firefighters and Scouts... others for whom the salute holds special meaning as well.

If you want to thank or honor a vet, just shake his/her hand and do it.

quote:

Here's a real appropriate salute. This guy should know better!

1. So what?

2. When your hands are full or you are otherwise occupied in a way that makes returning a salute impractical you are not required to render or return one.

The fact is that the Commander in Chief did his best under the circumstances to return the salute he was rendered. Probably better off acknowledging with a nod, but it's a snap decision.

quote:

so he brushed up on the move or got one of his handpicked generals who smile favorably towards his policies to teach him how before he went?

Nope. He didn't learn that from an officer. He buttonholed an NCO. Otherwise, I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:
If you want to thank or honor a vet, just shake his/her hand and do it.

When talking or shaking hands is not possible (usually an issue of geographic distance or ceremonial etiquette), I'll put my right hand on my heart (similar to civilian pledge-of-allegiance pose)and bow my head.

I don't know if it's appropriate, but it's never been taken the wrong way.

I too feel the salute is earned, so I don't do it; I just wish there was an acknowleged, appropriate, non-verbal way of showing gratitude and respect.

Quote:"To me a salute from anyone is a sign of respect and admiration. I've returned the salutes of children and civilians who didn't "earn the right" to salute. I've also been forced (by military protocol) to salute some real asshats. I value a salute from someone who didn't serve more than I value the somewhat obligatory salutes found in the services. Just my thought".

I couldn't agree more.

And I think it's fair to say, a lot of the folks bitchin' about the "photo op", would be bitchin' just the same if he wasn't there.

quote:

quote:
so he brushed up on the move or got one of his handpicked generals who smile favorably towards his policies to teach him how before he went?


Nope. He didn't learn that from an officer. He buttonholed an NCO. Otherwise, I agree.

And we all know he learned how to properly salute from a MARINE!

quote:

Originally posted by joebalama:


And I think it's fair to say, a lot of the folks bitchin' about the "photo op", would be bitchin' just the same if he wasn't there.

I wouldn't be 'bitchin'' at all if he had just had the decency to keep the cameras away. But then, I really don't think he would have gone WITHOUT them.


Again, I don't care about his salute - he is Commander-in-Chief so he SHOULD salute, and it was a good one. It's the intent behind this whole stunt that I find fault with.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Ironically, his salute is better executed than the Major General right next to him.

... who looks as though he just poked himself in the eye. Apparently he's out of practice.

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:
Officers NEVER salute correctly. Ever. I think it's a requirement or something.

Tank, maybe someday you will learn to respect the other side. I need to let you meet my old man someday. USMA grad (highest hours in the yard and still graduated), retired as a bird after 34 yrs service, just a few active hot zones throughout. Last duty station was again USMA.

You see, when he choose to present arms everyone around knew how serious he was simply by demeanor, or they learned real quick. I cannot tell you how many times we would be walking down the street and would stop everything to chew some plebes/nco until he was confident they understood how important a clean salute is. Don’t even get me started on the gate guards, poor saps. After hearing him complain my entire childhood, I can guarantee there are still a few O's that can, and do, practice a proper salute every single time.

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:
I would argue that it would be an attempt to identify yourself as a current or prior service member. You're identifying yourself as part of a group, and you haven't earned membership.

That's where you're wrong. Were I ever to salute a service member (to make sure everything is clear, I never have done so) I would not be trying to identify myself as a service member myself. I do not lie and I do not pretend to be someone I am not. If I were ever to offer a salute to a service member, it would simply be a mark of respect.

Arty has patiently explained why that might not be a respectful way to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:

quote:

Please do not patronize me. We can have an informative discussion without sinking to that level.

Translation: I have a silly notion, and the subject matter experts have told me I'm wrong, but I want to keep arguing anyway.

Again, I ask you to stop patronizing me and engage in a discussion without "translating" or putting words in my mouth.

Look, I hate Obama's leftist politics.

But I get sick to death over the fact that some will criticize him for things that don't matter, and that some will criticize no matter what he does.

He goes to the arrival of dead soldiers, and he is criticized for making it a photo op. Or for making an "inappropriate" salute. But if he didn't go, somebody would complain that he didn't go.

It is like the way the left jumped on Bush no matter what he did.

The constant harping over everything just makes you look silly. It dilutes the real and important criticisms. I know we will never like him. I won't. But give it a rest, especially over the trivia.

quote:

Were I ever to salute a service member (to make sure everything is clear, I never have done so) I would not be trying to identify myself as a service member myself.

You're missing the point. By performing the action you WOULD be so identifying yourself, intentionally or not, to the vast majority of viewers.

It's been explained to you by those who have served why it wouldn't be considered appropriate, and you still insist that it would be OK.

You weren't looking for opinions you were looking for agreement.

Children and the uninformed are one thing. They are attempting a show of respect and deserve a return salute for their effort... but YOU asked and were told. You don't have their excuse anymore.

quote:

Further, saluting when you aren't a member of a profession worthy of rendering a salute is claiming a right and honor you haven't earned. The salute isn't JUST a gesture of respect towards someone, it is a demand of respect FROM someone, an assertion of membership in a select group and a claim upon the collective honor and esteem in which society holds that group, and the esteem with which they regard each other.

________________________________________________

Right on brother, that just sums it up. Enough said!

I always found it interesting how the Sergeant Major of the Army who is 1 of 1 in his position and reports directly to the Chief Of Staff still has to salute all commissioned officers. It's good to see that some rules aren't broken depending on position or rank.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I always found it interesting how the Sergeant Major of the Army who is 1 of 1 in his position and reports directly to the Chief Of Staff still has to salute all commissioned officers. It's good to see that some rules aren't broken depending on position or rank.

Why would that be surprising to you?

The SMA is still enlisted at the end of the day and therefore must salute even the newest butterbar he encounters. He's not an enlisted general, although I've seen some that thought they were.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I always found it interesting how the Sergeant Major of the Army who is 1 of 1 in his position and reports directly to the Chief Of Staff still has to salute all commissioned officers. It's good to see that some rules aren't broken depending on position or rank.

Why would that be surprising to you?

The SMA is still enlisted at the end of the day and therefore must salute even the newest butterbar he encounters. He's not an enlisted general, although I've seen some that thought they were.

exactly why, because the position is so unique ans there is a certain reverence that is attributed to it. Not really surprised, just an interesting. But i've never been in the armed forces so for me it's an observation from an outsiders perspective....and no I wouldn't salute him...buy him a beer maybe.

Cant stand the nman or his policies same way I felt about Clinton but I respect his position and his salutes.