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In Vino Veritas
Picture of Jaycat
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Prob agency policy. Mine said i have to carry one specific gun and can get a second on my retired I D if I shoot over 90% with the first. I qualled with my 229 Carry SAO and my Glock 23. The cert is only good for 1 year, and I have to go back annually to re-qual at my dept. range. I have since moved to Tennessee and have a CHL. I can carry ANY handgun. It is good for 8 years. I let my hr218 lapse.


Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun!!!
 
Posts: 928 | Location: Clarksville TN | Registered: November 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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Some states took a clearly written LEOSA law and started adding their own twists to it. All they needed to do, was follow the guidelines laid out in LEOSA and be done with it.

I remember when LEOSA first came about, there were states saying they were not going to acknowledge or allow LEOSA. It's a freaking Federal Law....they did not have a choice in the matter!!

Then came the HP ammo thing. LEOSA says ammo not restricted by Federal law or NFA is legal to carry. HP ammo is not restricted, but you get dump states like NJ doing everything possible to keep people from carrying it.

Having to document make, model and serial numbers of firearms, qualifying with each individual you may want to carry, having to get a carry permit from your state, etc. Yeah, these states really screwed up LEOSA.


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3233 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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I spoke extensively with an attorney at the NRA Law Enforcement Division. He assured me that individual states could indeed decide what qualification procedures they wanted to use.

Even so this does NOT nullify LEOSA's standard that one must qualify (with states individual standards) with the "TYPE" of weapon that is to be carried and is not limited to that specific weapon.

He assured me that if I qualified with a Sig Sauer, that would NOT limit me to a Sig Sauer. He assured me that I could carry a Glock, Ruger, S&W or any other handgun to include a revolver if I so chose.

This is a copy of the reply I got from the NRA:

Thank you for contacting the NRA-ILA. You are correct. Please see the first answer in our LEOSA FAQ section. You may also call 800-672-3888 and ask for our Law Enforcement Division.

“This is a frequent concern given the statute's use of the term "type of firearm." LEOSA authorizes the carrying of a "concealed firearm" of the same "type" the individual receives certification for. As there is no case law interpreting this wording, the word "type" should be read to conform with the dictionary definition; something distinguishable as a variety. Accordingly, "type" of firearm should be read to mean either long gun or hand gun, which would permit you to carry any type of legal long gun or hand gun based on your qualification and not one particular make, model, or caliber.”

Sincerely,

David
Grassroots Division
www.NRAILA.org
ILA-Contact@NRAHQ.org
From: do-not-reply@nraila.org <do-not-reply@nraila.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 9:15 PM
To: ILA-Contact <ILA-Contact@nrahq.org>
Subject: Contact NRA-ILA Form

If you have questions or concerns please call the above number and ask for the Law Enforcement Division. Please visit the link below.


https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/leos...ked-questions/


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of az4783054
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I'll bet that the ACLU would not be willing to represent you if needed. Roll Eyes

I've never read the statute, does it provide for a penalty?


*************************************************

You're not that special unless you walked on the moon or received the Medal of Honor.

 
Posts: 8831 | Location: Somewhere north of a hot humid hell in the summer. | Registered: January 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by az4783054:

I'll bet that the ACLU would not be willing to represent you if needed.
ACLU?



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20542 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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quote:
Originally posted by SheepdogIHSV:
I spoke extensively with an attorney at the NRA Law Enforcement Division. He assured me that individual states could indeed decide what qualification procedures they wanted to use.

Even so this does NOT nullify LEOSA's standard that one must qualify (with states individual standards) with the "TYPE" of weapon that is to be carried and is not limited to that specific weapon.

He assured me that if I qualified with a Sig Sauer, that would NOT limit me to a Sig Sauer. He assured me that I could carry a Glock, Ruger, S&W or any other handgun to include a revolver if I so chose.

This is a copy of the reply I got from the NRA:

Thank you for contacting the NRA-ILA. You are correct. Please see the first answer in our LEOSA FAQ section. You may also call 800-672-3888 and ask for our Law Enforcement Division.

“This is a frequent concern given the statute's use of the term "type of firearm." LEOSA authorizes the carrying of a "concealed firearm" of the same "type" the individual receives certification for. As there is no case law interpreting this wording, the word "type" should be read to conform with the dictionary definition; something distinguishable as a variety. Accordingly, "type" of firearm should be read to mean either long gun or hand gun, which would permit you to carry any type of legal long gun or hand gun based on your qualification and not one particular make, model, or caliber.”

Sincerely,

David
Grassroots Division
www.NRAILA.org
ILA-Contact@NRAHQ.org
From: do-not-reply@nraila.org <do-not-reply@nraila.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 9:15 PM
To: ILA-Contact <ILA-Contact@nrahq.org>
Subject: Contact NRA-ILA Form

If you have questions or concerns please call the above number and ask for the Law Enforcement Division. Please visit the link below.


https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/leos...ked-questions/


I agree with the NRA's opinion, but their stance means nothing. It doesn't prevent states and/or departments from implementing things that are not required.

Like I said, I have a letter from MPOETC stating if a firearm has different controls (Glock vs Sig), I'm supposed to make the retired officer qualify with both if the will carry both. It is what it is.......but, we make it work! Wink


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3233 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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I can understand the different controls thing even if I don't agree with it' Since I didn't want to press my luck I qualified with 6 different guns (2 P226's, 2 P229's, 2 P239's. As we know they all have the exact same manual of arms but they do have different serial number.

It hasn't gone into effect but I was told that soon if you were to switch out a barrel to a different caliber on a gun already qualified you will have to qualify that very gun separately with the barrel of the other caliber. I hope they don't put that restriction through.

The officers doing the qualifying don't like this any more than we do because it also applies to them.

Needless to say it was a great range day with 240 rounds shot to qualify and another 200 rounds on my own.

I just think that it is overkill.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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I don’t know what information an officer gets when checking on a retired officer covered by LEOSA from PA.

I know the card they get issued had a check box for either semi-auto or revolver, nothing more. When they call the number on the card in an attempt to verify the retired officers, I don’t know if they just verify his status, or break it down to include make and model of serial (based on the form I’m required to send them).

For active duty officers covered by LEOSA, as long as they meet the requirements, there is no way to verify make or model of firearm, since this info for active officers is not sent in.


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3233 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posting without pants
Picture of KevinCW
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Legally, that doesnt' make sense, but I understand it for the purposes of the Agency.

As one requirement that Agency is required to qualify you, and qualify you with EACH gun you want to carry.

Now for small town places that maybe one or two people retire from each year taht may not be bad. From someplace like mine where we have 4 sessions per year, and MAYBE 20 percent of active retireees show up, it can be a huge deal, and HUGE liability.

We say to our retirees, that you can qualify with ONE gun, and by law, you have to qualify EVERY YEAR.

We host 4 class dates, with a max of 30 people per year (none have exceeded it so far) If they did we would prolly do more.

These are honestly some of the most dangerous days I've ever worked the range. There are about half the retired officers who keep up their skills the best thye can, and the other half.... holy crap....

All that said.... We require you to put down the make, model number and serial number of your gun. That's what you carry if you chose to do so with the credentials.





Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up."
 
Posts: 32486 | Location: St. Louis MO | Registered: February 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by KevinCW:

...There are about half the retired officers who keep up their skills the best thye can, and the other half.... holy crap...


What course do the retirees fire? For eastern Iowa, it's the same course we used to qualify with, 50 rds starting at 25 yds and working in.
 
Posts: 13771 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by KevinCW:
These are honestly some of the most dangerous days I've ever worked the range.


Yep.

Retiree quals.
Part-time/auxiliary class first-time quals.
Night quals.

Those are the ones that get my palms a bit sweaty.


quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:
What course do the retirees fire?


Here it's the same standard state qual as everyone else.
 
Posts: 22696 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
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And this is why I don’t claim LEOSA. When I retired in NC, I got a CCW. When we moved to TX I got a CHL. No requirements for specific guns, no specifics for annual quals....nothing. I carry what I want when I want. And if I want to carry a 1911 I can. ( my old dept had a policy against single action guns)



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

 
Posts: 5957 | Location: Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Objectively Reasonable
Picture of DennisM
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
And this is why I don’t claim LEOSA.


If you're in "Free America" and don't have reciprocity issues with your state CCW, that's completely workable.

Woe betide those in the Northeast and some of the other garden spots.
 
Posts: 1662 | Registered: January 01, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This thread is EXACTLY why I stayed on “part-time” after I retired. At one point NH passed rules regulating the caliber of pistol you could carry under LEOSA.
 
Posts: 554 | Location: NH | Registered: December 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by chongosuerte:
Federal law trumps agency policy.

If you are retired and carrying under LEOSA, the agency can pound sand on their policy. Even if the state requirement is to carry as active, under your credentials, you have to qualify with the specific gun/ammo, that’s not what LEOSA is.

All you need for LEOSA is a retirement card and firearm quals. Even if you’re carrying while active under LEOSA and violate your agency’s policy on qualifying with any gun you carry, it’s not a violation of law.

I don’t think there is any argument that is viable from your agency’s standpoint unless you are still a reserve or something with them and are subject to their discipline. You don’t even have to qualify with the agency you retired from. Not even the same state, if I recall correctly. They can quite certainly F themselves on such stupidity.



Not to be argumentative but an agency can deny or take back ur police ID whenever they want to for whatever reason they want to, in MN. There is no requirement to be issued one upon retirement. So the pound sand mentality won’t always work with agencies.
 
Posts: 321 | Registered: September 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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I have a little over 4 years left before I retire. I might decide to stay on as a part-time LEO for a few years.

I'm good friends with a former LEO in my area that does LEOSA qualification/certifications, so I don't have to worry about getting my cert/qual if I decide to not go part-time.

Who knows that the states will do in the coming years to muck up something simple like LEOSA.


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3233 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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I have written the NRA seeking further clarification and have yet to get a response. I have been an NRA life time distinguished member for quite some time and expected to get a response by now.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 808
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https://www.philly.com/news/re...lloway-20190530.html

Retired Officer stops robbery.


_______________
NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 1082 | Location: Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania | Registered: February 04, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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UPDATE

I checked with two adjacent counties. They DO NOT take the serial number of the weapon and the certification card will only indicate "semi-auto or revolver or both"

I re-qualified with one of the counties and got a new certification card that reads "semi-auto/revolver"

It seems that Indian River County is one of few that go above and beyond what the law requires and lists the exact gun/guns that you qualified with.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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