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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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I've got a question for any retired LEO's out there.

Thursday I did my annual HR 218 qualification. On the paper work I had to list the make, model, and serial number of the weapon that I qualified with.
I had never before had to do this.

When I had completed the course of fire, my qualification card said "Sig Sauer P226".

I asked the deputy why he had noted the make and model and not just "automatic or revolver" as the law required,

He explained that it was a new rule and that the only gun that I could carry under HR 218 was the exact gun that I had qualified with.

I pulled up a copy of the law and sure enough it states that a qualified person "must qualify with the TYPE (auto or revolver) of firearm that they intend to carry".

He said that if I were involved in a shooting in another state that the IRCSO could only attest that I was proficient with a Sig Sauer P226 ser#xxxxxx.

I have been retired since 2011 and have been HR 218 certified every year since then. All of my previous certification cards only specify "semi-auto".

Has anyone else had this happen? Can a county or state override Federal Law?

I look foreward to your comments.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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Also, if there any members with any legal knowledge, I would appreciate hearing from you.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you're referring tp LEOSA, there is no such federal requirement. It may be a state one, however.
 
Posts: 14955 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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He's wrong. Could be an agency thing. The law has not changed.
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My agency does the same thing. Model, caliber, serial number. I suspect it has a large part to do with liabilities. The agency can only attest to my proficiency with the gun, or guns, I qualified with.


Ignem Feram
 
Posts: 318 | Registered: October 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Constable
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I qualify annually with my old Agency. I qual with whatever auto as well as revolver I tend to carry.

I keep a copy of my score and the gun used in my files.

I think some of these States/Agencies like to make things overly complex.
 
Posts: 6443 | Location: Craig, MT | Registered: December 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
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Federal law trumps agency policy.

If you are retired and carrying under LEOSA, the agency can pound sand on their policy. Even if the state requirement is to carry as active, under your credentials, you have to qualify with the specific gun/ammo, that’s not what LEOSA is.

All you need for LEOSA is a retirement card and firearm quals. Even if you’re carrying while active under LEOSA and violate your agency’s policy on qualifying with any gun you carry, it’s not a violation of law.

I don’t think there is any argument that is viable from your agency’s standpoint unless you are still a reserve or something with them and are subject to their discipline. You don’t even have to qualify with the agency you retired from. Not even the same state, if I recall correctly. They can quite certainly F themselves on such stupidity.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 10470 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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I spoke to another deputy on the same department. His understanding was that if I qualified with a semi-auto I would be ok even if the card specified a particular gun.

My problem is that in the unfortunate case of being involved in a shooting an overzealous prosecutor could make an issue of it.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of az4783054
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If it's not state or federal law, the 'P226' on the card doesn't hold water. The federal law will override a department policy.


I know a little about a lot of things, but I don't know everything. I'm in the minority these days.
 
Posts: 9188 | Location: Somewhere north of a hot humid hell in the summer. | Registered: January 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Currently, my department has retired officers qualify once a year. We can qualify with multiple firearms and the make,model,and serial number are marked in the department records.
Our retirement ID is marked that we have qualified under federal law. No mention of firearm type on the card.
 
Posts: 345 | Location: The once great state of California | Registered: November 05, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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KY requires annual recertifications, but the exercise is identical to civilian CCDW. Go shoot, scan the sheet and submit online with your photo, and a new card arrives at the Sheriff's Office for you to pick up. In my county, no charge.
 
Posts: 14955 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SheepdogIHSV:
I spoke to another deputy on the same department. His understanding was that if I qualified with a semi-auto I would be ok even if the card specified a particular gun.

My problem is that in the unfortunate case of being involved in a shooting an overzealous prosecutor could make an issue of it.


Really they can't. The plain English language of the statue is that you are immune from prosecution for carry laws if you're in compliance with HR218.

Every case I am aware of where somebody has been charged and raised HR218 as a defense on a carrying charge has resulted in a win for the defendant. There was the Seattle one where they shot a biker it something in a bar, the one where a USCG boarding officer was ruled to fit the statue, and the one where a Pennsylvania constable was ruled to fit the statute.

Your biggest concern should be civil liability, especially if the wrong person is somehow shot. Then the lack of qualification on the specific gun used might be an issue, but I think we all know that failure to train and negligence claims aren't ever going to be bested solely by a card that says you made your 80%.
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 808
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This will give a general idea of the requirements in Pennsylvania.

https://mpoetc.psp.pa.gov/rlei...ired%20Officers.aspx

After complete in qualification this form must be completed. Noting make ,model and type of ammo.

https://mpoetc.psp.pa.gov/rlei...Form%20(Revised).pdf

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 808,


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Posts: 1085 | Location: Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania | Registered: February 04, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't believe Pennsylvania can legally impose more requirements than the statute already does.
 
Posts: 2954 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 808
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quote:
Originally posted by DaBigBR:
I don't believe Pennsylvania can legally impose more requirements than the statute already does.


Well they do it somehow


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Posts: 1085 | Location: Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania | Registered: February 04, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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I do LEOSA qualifications here in PA (still active LEO) and there is no requirement to list firearm make or model.

LEOSA states firearm "type" in the law. Type is defined as handgun or long gun, period. This is the definition of "firearm as listed in 18 U.S.C. § 921 : US Code - Section 921: Definitions

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter
gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to
expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or
receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm
silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include
an antique firearm.


However, in PA on the form I send in, I have to list the make and model. This is a PA thing and NOT a LEOSA requirement. And of course ammo type, which I always list as JHP.

Way back when, I had sent an email to MPOETC, the governing board for LE here in PA and asked the question about firearm "type" According to those knuckleheads, a person who qualifies with a Glock, can carry any Glock. But, if they want to carry another firearm, say a Sig, because the controls are different, I'm supposed to make then qualify with the Sig too.

Doesn't make sense, because on the card I issue to the retired officer, there are only two check boxes; semi-auto or revolver. Which comes back to the definition of firearm "type" addressed in LEOSA. In there, "type" would include both semi-auto and revolver. There is no distinction between the two.

But, I do what I have to do in order to satisfy PA's stupid requirements.


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3254 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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And, if you think that's bad, you should see what retired officers who live in NJ have to deal with!!!

Even though LEOSA expressly allows it, retired LEO's living in NJ are told they can NOT carry HP ammo. This is in direct conflict as to what LEOSA authorizes.

I also believe that they must apply for a NJ carry license or something similar. They must qualify twice a year, although LEOSA says they only have to prove they qualified within the past 12 months. They must qualify with each firearm they intend to carry.

Google the requirements for retired LEO's living in NJ.........you'll pull you're hair out!


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3254 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you Steve in Pa . For the great detailed information.

Do you have any information on how Officers that work in Pa but live just inside NJ. How do they transport and carry their firearms coming and going to NJ.


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Posts: 1085 | Location: Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania | Registered: February 04, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Steve in PA
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If they are working in LE over here in PA, that means they are active duty and covered by LEOSA, even though they live in NJ.

The non-HP ammo issue only applies to retired LEOs living in NJ.

There are a few LE organizations challenging NJ’s dumb HP stance for retired officers living in NJ, but they have a tough hill to climb.

I think there is an amendment in the works for LEOSA to address magazine limits, clearing up the HP issue in NJ and addressing states like Hawaii that says out of state LEOs have to register their firearms.


Steve
"The Marines I have seen around the world have, the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps." Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945
 
Posts: 3254 | Location: Northeast PA | Registered: June 05, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SheepdogIHSV
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This change negatively effects all current and retired LEO's. It directly contradicts Federal Law as written and should be challenged.

Previously (and currently as stated in HR 218) you would be able to carry ANY handgun of the TYPE that you had qualified with concealed in all states and territories.

Now some states will only allow you to carry the very handgun that you had qualified with.

What this means is that if 3 months after you qualify your handgun breaks and you buy another one of the exact make, model, and caliber you would have to re-qualify with the new handgun to be covered by HR 218.

I don't know how much it would cost to challenge this but I'm sure that it is much more then an individual could afford.

I'm sure that this was originated by gun hating attorneys and if this is allowed to stand we have to wonder what they will come up with next in order to further neuter HR 218.


Luke 22:36
 
Posts: 66 | Registered: December 16, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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