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EPA Continues to Promote Dangerous E15 with 2018 RFS Volume Mandates


7/6/2017 12:00:00 AM | General Government Relations



Yesterday, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced its proposed 2018 Renewable Volume Obligations (RVO), as part of the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program, which mirror the record high levels mandated in 2017. In particular, the volume of conventional biofuels (i.e. ethanol; E15) is set to stay at 15 billion gallons - the maximum allowed under the law – and continue to put boaters at significant risk. NMMA has maintained the need for the EPA to propose lower 2018 levels to ensure that the boating public remains safe on the water and continues to enjoy access to approved fuel blends. This announcement is ultimately disconcerting for the more than 88 million boaters and 35,000 businesses that make up the recreational boating and fishing industry.

NMMA Federal and Legal Affairs Vice President Nicole Vasilaros reacted to the news with the following statement: “We’re disappointed in the EPA’s 2018 RVO proposal, as the levels included are too high and continue to promote E15 - proven to cause significant damage to marine engines - in the fuel supply. The proposal in its current form would deny the boating public choice at the pump, while subjecting the industry to an increasing supply of a dangerous, prohibited fuel blend for their products. The expansion of E15, threatens access to safe fuels like E10 and without robust public education efforts, puts consumers at further risk of misfueling. Higher RVOs also diminish the availability of E0, which many boaters demand. The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) is a broken law, that doesn’t reflect the market and consumer realities of today, making it more important than ever for Congress to fix the mandate.”

Although conventional biofuel levels remain the same from last year, the EPA used its waiver authority to reduce cellulosic mandated levels. This reduces the opportunity for advanced biofuels to come to market, while keeping corn-based ethanol as the main biofuel option. NMMA supports ethanol fuel blends up to 10 percent and alternative fuel options, such as biobutanol in consumer pumps.

NMMA plans to engage in the public comment period to raise industry concerns, ahead of the November 30 deadline for finalizing the 2018 RVOs. We will also carry forward efforts on Capitol Hill to push for a more comprehensive RFS reform that produces a more realistic and workable rule for all stakeholders.

For any questions, please contact Nicole Vasilaros at nvasilaros@nmma.org or Mike Pasko at mpasko@nmma.org.

NMMA Article

Sent a message to my Congressman on this specific issue as well as my concern about the lack of control that Congress seems to have over this rogue agency.


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Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

“If in winning a race, you lose the respect of your fellow competitors, then you have won nothing” - Paul Elvstrom "The Great Dane" 1928 - 2016
 
Posts: 2022 | Location: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: March 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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How is E15 "dangerous"?

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that E10/E15 will dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks on a lot of boats (old and new), but that is about it. Of course, engines ingesting that slurry of fuel and liquid fiberglass pretty much fucks the motor.

Is there something else going on here?
 
Posts: 1214 | Registered: September 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Doubtful...
Picture of toms
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quote:
Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
How is E15 "dangerous"?

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that E10/E15 will dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks on a lot of boats (old and new), but that is about it. Of course, engines ingesting that slurry of fuel and liquid fiberglass pretty much fucks the motor.

Is there something else going on here?


Well for one thing, fuel leaking (think conflagration) from a tank that has been compromised might be an issue!

Loss of a mechanical means of propulsion from the above mentioned Fubar motor while at sea might not be the best scenario either!


Best regards,

Tom


I have no comment at this time.
 
Posts: 2694 | Location: Texas | Registered: April 02, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
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[Captain Obvious] Going from 10 to 15% ethanol is a 50% increase in the ethanol content.


 
Posts: 19060 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too old to run,
too mean to quit!
posted Hide Post
Well, as I recall, the efficiency of E10 is something on the order of 15% fewer miles per gallon, and adds contamination to the environment.

So, costs more to drive, and screws with the environment.

Typical EPA BS.

Only reason this horse shit got started was because of a bunch of lobbyists bought enough politicraps to actually drive it through congress.

Way past the time to drain the swamp, starting with the capitol building.


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 22083 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sailor1911
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quote:
Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
How is E15 "dangerous"?

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that E10/E15 will dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks on a lot of boats (old and new), but that is about it. Of course, engines ingesting that slurry of fuel and liquid fiberglass pretty much fucks the motor.

Is there something else going on here?


From Popular Mechanics:


By Ben Wojdyla


Feb 13, 2013

What is E15 and why should I care?

E15 is shorthand for gasoline blended with 15 percent ethanol. The reason it's a big deal is that ethanol is fairly corrosive to rubber and certain metals, so it can cause damage to vital components. Ethanol also attracts and bonds with water from the air, and that water can separate out inside the tank due to phase separation. If your vehicle sits for long periods between use, the moisture settles to the bottom of the tank and can potentially clog in-tank pumps and filters. Damage is also possible in fuel lines, injectors, seals, gaskets, and valve seats as well as carburetors on older engines.

Is it really okay for my car?

This is a tricky question and the subject of a lot of hand-wringing right now. The gas you use now is often 10 percent ethanol, but some industry groups believe the higher concentration of E15 will cause problems. All cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components. The EPA has certified vehicles in the U.S. fleet made in 2001 or newer, and all Flex Fuel–capable vehicles (able to use up to an 85 percent ethanol, 15 percent gasoline mix) as E15 compatible. One study conducted at Kettering University found no remarkable degradation in fuel systems all the way back to 1995 model years. But the main issue is whether or not your vehicle will be covered under warranty for any damage caused by E15 usage, and in many cases the answer is no. GM and Ford have certified their own vehicles starting with the 2012 and 2013 model years, respectively, so some brand-new cars will have no trouble at all.

My car is older than 2001. What should I do?

Don't fill your fuel tank with E15, simple as that. Even though the new fuel is coming to market, the gasoline or E10 you fill your tank with now will still be available. There is a twist, though. At gas stations that use blender pumps (a single spout that dispenses all octanes) you'll have to purchase at least 4 gallons of E10 to insure any E15 in the hose is diluted to safe levels in your fuel tank. Fuel pumps will be required to have a 4-inch-square label warning motorists not to use the fuel for uncertified engines. With that in mind, the best advice if you have an older car is to stick to stations that have not switched over.

Will this damage my lawnmower, boat, jet ski, snowmobile, or four-wheeler?

It sure will if you don't pay attention. Generally, small engines are not designed to deal with the more corrosive E15 blend. And, as we mentioned in 2010, ethanol forms a brown goo when left in a fuel tank too long, which can clog fuel-system components. Two-stroke engines run hotter with an ethanol blend, which accelerates the potential damage. And ethanol can wreak havoc on fiberglass fuel tanks in older boats. Groups like the National Marine Manufacturers Association and Outdoor Power Equipment Institute have issued strong warnings to consumers to pay attention to their fuels or risk severe engine damage. Use a fuel stabilizer if the engine will sit for more than a few weeks without use; this will reduce the ethanol–water separation and potential gumming issues. Be careful to avoid using E15 in uncertified engines like these, at least until the subject is studied more thoroughly, and the engineering catches up to the fuel.
Popular Mechanics E15 Article

And, as Toms said, the dissolution of fuel tanks is more than just a potential problem. There are cases out there where the fuel tanks have dissolved, fuel gets in the bilge and boom goes the boat.

So, because the EPA dictates a higher concentration of alcohol in the fuel, the world has to retrofit its equipment with IMO a very questionable benefit and a very definite increase in the cost of the raw material, corn. It's IMO more about the ECO Nazi's and Farm subsidy than the actual benefit to society in the end. End of Rant!


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Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

“If in winning a race, you lose the respect of your fellow competitors, then you have won nothing” - Paul Elvstrom "The Great Dane" 1928 - 2016
 
Posts: 2022 | Location: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: March 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
Well, as I recall, the efficiency of E10 is something on the order of 15% fewer miles per gallon, and adds contamination to the environment.


Ethanol in gas is a stupid idea, but not quite that bad. The difference is about 5%. If you think about it, even if the ethanol had zero energy content (it definitely has more than zero), the most it could do would be to lower the MPG by 10%.
 
Posts: 6341 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had a 2000 Dodge Ram with a 4.7 that had a loss of 30% in fuel mileage with E10. It was worth paying 1.00 more per gallon for pure gas. It absorbs water too- so I don't use it in my boat. Hate the crap.
 
Posts: 176 | Registered: February 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
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Still time to kill off this proposed rule making by calling your Congressional critters and the White House.

Sailor1911's article is really good with the following four adds:
  • In June 2011, the EPA under the 0bama administration ignored the both the automotive manufacturers and the oil & gas companies when they magically declared all vehicles after 2001 to be e15 compatible. Manufacturers had only rated them e10 compatible.
  • Additionally, in June 2011, the EPA ignored an e10 and e15 side by side study on 2001 to 2007 vehicles showing a statistically significant increase in failures with both fuel pumps and fuel level senders.
  • e15 is so unpopular in the free market that it is only available at 875 stations total in 29 states. Contrast that with 12,323 gas stations selling ethanol free gas.
  • There is an inordinate amount of e15 propaganda on the Internet from ethanol producers, corn growing states, and greenies. Some of this propaganda is so dishonest that you would think CNN published it.



    Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

    DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
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    Posts: 14373 | Location: N. Houston, TX | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Over the last year I have spent a few thousand dealing with issues brought on by ethanol - fuel pumps, hoses being dissolved, etc. I now only put NonE in the boat and the engines run great.

    Ethanol is a huge scam, but the lobby is too big / too much $$ to go away. Sux.





    “Freedom is something that dies unless it's used.”

    Hunter S. Thompson
     
    Posts: 1207 | Location: South Florida | Registered: December 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
    How is E15 "dangerous"?

    My understanding (which could be wrong) is that E10/E15 will dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks on a lot of boats (old and new), but that is about it. Of course, engines ingesting that slurry of fuel and liquid fiberglass pretty much fucks the motor.

    Is there something else going on here?


    YES. It disintegrates the fiberglass, the gas leaks into the bilge and either the engine is running or the bilge pump comes on and KABOOM or you jut pumped 200 gallons of gasoline into the water. Neither is good.
     
    Posts: 14285 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    quote:
    Originally posted by jimmy123x:.YES. It disintegrates the fiberglass, the gas leaks into the bilge and either the engine is running or the bilge pump comes on and KABOOM or you jut pumped 200 gallons of gasoline into the water. Neither is good.


    I don't like E10, but you cant blame the fuel for a boater's lack of diligence and maintenance. Yes, it ruins glass tanks but the shit aint acid, a boater will know they have a problem long before a fist size hole is in the tank. I feel like it is 1975 again and this was the same bitch with unleaded fuel.

    The 200 gallons in the bilge is normally due to the idiot pumping it into a rod holder! (I have witnessed that on more than one occasion)
     
    Posts: 1214 | Registered: September 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Ammoholic
    Picture of Skins2881
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    Crazy idea. Why don't we eat the corn and burn the dinosaurs? I'm pretty sure we can't eat dino juice.

    We aren't running out of gas anytime soon and the demand will be offset by increased electric vehicles coming into more common use.

    The E fuel just doesn't add up, no matter the angle you look at it from. Is there a single logical argument for it?



    Jesse

    A couple SIGs and a few others
     
    Posts: 9649 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of nhracecraft
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
    quote:
    Originally posted by jimmy123x:.YES. It disintegrates the fiberglass, the gas leaks into the bilge and either the engine is running or the bilge pump comes on and KABOOM or you jut pumped 200 gallons of gasoline into the water. Neither is good.


    I don't like E10, but you cant blame the fuel for a boater's lack of diligence and maintenance. Yes, it ruins glass tanks but the shit aint acid, a boater will know they have a problem long before a fist size hole is in the tank. I feel like it is 1975 again and this was the same bitch with unleaded fuel.

    The 200 gallons in the bilge is normally due to the idiot pumping it into a rod holder! (I have witnessed that on more than one occasion)

    Some boats have BIG Tanks....And people are stupid! Just sayin' Roll Eyes


    ____________________________________________________________

    If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
     
    Posts: 2841 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of bigdeal
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
    How is E15 "dangerous"?
    I drive a 2001 Ford F-150 daily. Not because I 'have' to, but because I really love the truck and see zero reason to replace it. I have been told specifically by the service department at my dealership, as well as by two mechanics I know and trust that E15 will kill the fuel system on my truck. For god sake, E10 is already killing my fuel economy.

    I have zero desire or intent to fork out $50k+ for a new truck because the EPA and federal government have opted to ignore the recommendations of virtually everyone who knows anything about internal combustion engines, so that politicians can continue to pick up huge checks from the large Agri-business lobby.

    Ethanol has been total BS from the very beginning, accomplishing little to nothing positive, other than lining the pockets of politicians. Upping the amount in our fuel is stupid on steroids and only a 'solution' government would propose.


    -----------------------------
    Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
     
    Posts: 25011 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
    quote:
    Originally posted by jimmy123x:.YES. It disintegrates the fiberglass, the gas leaks into the bilge and either the engine is running or the bilge pump comes on and KABOOM or you jut pumped 200 gallons of gasoline into the water. Neither is good.


    I don't like E10, but you cant blame the fuel for a boater's lack of diligence and maintenance. Yes, it ruins glass tanks but the shit aint acid, a boater will know they have a problem long before a fist size hole is in the tank. I feel like it is 1975 again and this was the same bitch with unleaded fuel.

    The 200 gallons in the bilge is normally due to the idiot pumping it into a rod holder! (I have witnessed that on more than one occasion)


    Think yacht, not center console. I know of a few boats when they first started putting it into the gas at marina's and nobody said anything about it and REC 90 wasn't available (there was about a year period where all marine fuel was e10 in some states). They fueled up their big aft cabin motoryacht in the marina, docked it 200' away in the slip and then a week or two later got a phone call that their boat is pumping gas into the water.
     
    Posts: 14285 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    quote:
    Originally posted by jimmy123x:.... their big aft cabin motoryacht ....


    You must live near the lakes, down here any "big" motoryachts are diesel. A gas powered motoryacht is "one slow boat to china"!

    We had a 33' Bertram that was gas and that thing was underpowered, I cant imagine anything bigger running gas motors. I know they exist, but, uggg, what pigs! Of course, today you have the LS/LT motors that are a whole lot better than years ago, but still, any big motoryacht running gas is a waste, IMHO.
     
    Posts: 1214 | Registered: September 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Enjoy Computer Living
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    President Trump is in favor of EPA's ethanol standards and has been since he first started campaigning in Iowa.
    Trump reaffirms support for ethanol

    Trump reaffirms support for ethanol in industry letter
    The Hill
    Feb. 21, 2017

    President Trump reiterated his support for the federal ethanol fuels mandate in a letter to industry supporters on Tuesday.

    Addressing attendees at the National Ethanol Conference, Trump said in a letter that he "value[s] the importance of renewable fuels to America's economy and to our energy independence."

    He promised to work with the industry's Renewable Fuels Association (RFA) to "identify and reform" regulations on the industry, which he said "has suffered from overzealous, job-killing regulation."

    Trump added, "As I emphasized throughout my campaign, renewable fuels are essential to America's energy strategy."



    Trump supported the Renewable Fuels Standard throughout his campaign, a position he refined during a second-place effort in the Iowa caucuses.

    Despite Trump's letter, some officials in his administration have signaled support for reforming the Renewable Fuel Standard.



    Trump adviser Carl Icahn, an investor whose holding company owns a major stake in a fuel refiner, is pushing to reform the RFS's "point of obligation," which assigns refiners the responsibility of complying with ethanol blending mandates under the law.

    Opponents of new Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Scott Pruitt have noted his ties to the oil industry during his time as Oklahoma's attorney general. But he told senators during a confirmation hearing last month that he would implement the mandate, which Congress updated in 2007.

    Ethanol supporters cheered Trump's letter on Tuesday.

    In a statement, RFA President Bob Dinneen said the RFS mandate "has cleaned the air, reduced our dependence on foreign oil and boosted local economies."

    "Donald Trump understands all this," he said. "Consumers benefit from this national policy and our industry looks forward to continuing to be the lowest cost, highest octane fuel in the world."



    -Loungechair
     
    Posts: 555 | Registered: October 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
    quote:
    Originally posted by jimmy123x:.... their big aft cabin motoryacht ....


    You must live near the lakes, down here any "big" motoryachts are diesel. A gas powered motoryacht is "one slow boat to china"!

    We had a 33' Bertram that was gas and that thing was underpowered, I cant imagine anything bigger running gas motors. I know they exist, but, uggg, what pigs! Of course, today you have the LS/LT motors that are a whole lot better than years ago, but still, any big motoryacht running gas is a waste, IMHO.


    Ummmm I live down the street from you.

    I own a Yacht management business.

    Most "aft cabin motoryachts" are under 44' and most of them are gas boats due to price...silverton, carver, old searays, old bertrams. A boat with a cabin in the stern, engine room in front of the aft cabin.

    Motoryachts usually are much larger, are what I typically deal with, and don't have an aft cabin (with the exception of old Hatteras MY's but they were never referred to as aft cabin motoryachts).

    But sometimes the tanks didn't start slowly weeping. The ones I heard about the ethanol ate the inside of the tank and then the tank split at a big seam and the fuel all gushed out fairly quickly.

    The E10 blend caused tons of problems for outboard owners when it first came out. Fuel lines, fuel pumps, internal vst fuel pumps/screens.
     
    Posts: 14285 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by jimmy123x:...Ummmm I live down the street from you.

    I own a Yacht management business. ....


    Crazy! We should meet up for lunch sometime, talk boats and guns!

    shoot me an email jadair(at)sflalaw.com
     
    Posts: 1214 | Registered: September 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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