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On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar Zulu:

Had a Luscombe wing penetrated through and through from above at 052. (airport ID).We found the .45 slug.
Yuba City?

We are X04, Orlando-Apopka.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
More information: Holes in the hangar roof. One 9mm bullet recovered from the gas tank of a Cessna 150, the instructor noticed the hole in the top of the wing when he was standing on a ladder, fueling the airplane.

Another 9mm bullet found on the hangar floor.

Lateral displacement between holes in the hangar roof and hole in the airplane wing indicates that the shots were not fired at the airport. Somebody, off airport, fired into the air, evidently believing that the bullets would stay up there in low orbit.

This is the sort of thing that we might expect around July 4th, or New Year's eve, but not so much in June.


What kind of roofing material is it? that is pretty interesting. at 575 yds a 115grn bullet drops below the 200ftlb mark. That is with a whopping 408 inches of drop, or 34 ft.
 
Posts: 5434 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 23, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Non-Miscreant
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Back when I did constructive work, I had to have some roof leaks repaired. Our roofer had a contract with GE Evendale. A huge plant under roof. He'd found dozens of bullets during his walks and repair events. What brought it up was the 3 or 4 he'd found on our tiny roof - maybe 60,000 SQ ft building.

This is racist... Smile it seems that minority communities have a pretty high prevalence of celebrity gunfire. It just happens regardless of the time of year. I live among hillbillies. They do the same thing. New Years eve its time to hide. In the basement. The idiot up on the hill must have moved, no gunfire for a few years. My poor deceased dalmatian could tell gunfire from fireworks. The gunfire he hated, wasn't bothered by gunfire. Go figure.

My brother lives up in Wisconsin. They abandoned the house on opening day of deer season. They return to find shot windows or roof holes. Most blame it on city hunters. They open fire at dawn and need to go back to the car for more ammo, or to town to find a gun store. Bet the prices are sky high that day. Full retail at least.

But times have changed around here. Mag dumps sound different now. A lot of AR stuff, not as much AK or SKS.


Unhappy ammo seeker
 
Posts: 16443 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: February 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by DSgrouse:

What kind of roofing material is it? that is pretty interesting. at 575 yds a 115grn bullet drops below the 200ftlb mark. That is with a whopping 408 inches of drop, or 34 ft.
I don't know what kind of roofing material. The hangar is similar to mine, but a bit larger: mine is 3,500 sq ft, the hangar that was damaged is 5,000 sq ft. The door is about 20 ft high, so the roof is at least 30 ft above the ground. Between my fear of heights and my limited mobility due age and supporting hardware embedded in my right hip & thigh, I have never been up on the roof, and I have no intention of going up there. Judging from what I can see, the hangar roofs are all sheet metal, just like the walls. Photo:



I am not a ballistics dude, but I am a mathematician (my B.S. is with a math major). It appears to me that the figures that you cited apply to a bullet that is fired horizontally.

Think about one that is fired almost straight up. If we over-simplify, by ignoring the energy that is converted into heat by the drag of the atmosphere (i.e. assume that this takes place in a vacuum, with no air), a bullet fired almost vertically will have a parabolic trajectory and will return to ground at the same offset angle with respect to vertical, as the angle that it was fired from, and the velocity as it returns to ground level will be the same as the muzzle velocity it had when it was fired.

Now, remove the assumption of this taking place in a vacuum, and the preceding is mostly true. The velocity at the end will be a bit less than the muzzle velocity when fired, but not that much.

It does not take a heck of a lot of energy for a 9mm bullet to go through a thin piece of sheet metal. Try it, if you have some scrap metal and a safe place to do it.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
Now, remove the assumption of this taking place in a vacuum, and the preceding is mostly true. The velocity at the end will be a bit less than the muzzle velocity when fired, but not that much.


I'm not a physicist, but it's my understanding that a bullet fired vertically into the air will, on its return trajectory, be limited to a terminal velocity of around 300 fps.

Still damaging/lethal, but that's significantly less than its initial muzzle velocity (~1000-3000 fps).

Once it has expended its initial firing energy, gravity causes it to fall back to earth at standard gravitational acceleration until reaching terminal velocity as limited by air resistance.

Therefore, with only gravity acting on it, I don't believe a bullet will ever be able to return to a velocity that's the same or nearly the same as its original muzzle velocity.
 
Posts: 22972 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by DSgrouse:

What kind of roofing material is it? that is pretty interesting. at 575 yds a 115grn bullet drops below the 200ftlb mark. That is with a whopping 408 inches of drop, or 34 ft.
I don't know what kind of roofing material. The hangar is similar to mine, but a bit larger: mine is 3,500 sq ft, the hangar that was damaged is 5,000 sq ft. The door is about 20 ft high, so the roof is at least 30 ft above the ground. Between my fear of heights and my limited mobility due age and supporting hardware embedded in my right hip & thigh, I have never been up on the roof, and I have no intention of going up there. Judging from what I can see, the hangar roofs are all sheet metal, just like the walls. Photo:



I am not a ballistics dude, but I am a mathematician (my B.S. is with a math major). It appears to me that the figures that you cited apply to a bullet that is fired horizontally.

Think about one that is fired almost straight up. If we over-simplify, by ignoring the energy that is converted into heat by the drag of the atmosphere (i.e. assume that this takes place in a vacuum, with no air), a bullet fired almost vertically will have a parabolic trajectory and will return to ground at the same offset angle with respect to vertical, as the angle that it was fired from, and the velocity as it returns to ground level will be the same as the muzzle velocity it had when it was fired.

Now, remove the assumption of this taking place in a vacuum, and the preceding is mostly true. The velocity at the end will be a bit less than the muzzle velocity when fired, but not that much.

It does not take a heck of a lot of energy for a 9mm bullet to go through a thin piece of sheet metal. Try it, if you have some scrap metal and a safe place to do it.


Correct, my math was for it being fired horizontal. I tried to give the extreme range of what i thought a 9mm bullet can break through what i assumed was two sheets of sheet metal. one wing, one roof.

My 357 cal air rifle chrono's at 880 fps and a 95 grn pellet (well 95 grain die cut slug) It will easily pierce 2 thin sheets of metal. I don't have roofing metal, it shot through an old lined grill at 50 yds. Some times it would not make it all the way through the 2nd layer. so I bumped the ftlb numbers up by guess work from 160ish to 200 ish ftlbs of energy. That is how i picked 575yds.

SO, knowing that i looked up what a 9mm bullet would need to do from the very least. it would need to be 900 yds or closer to have that 167ftlbs of my my 357 air rifle. at 900 yds and 167 ftlbs it would be going 793 fps. with a drop of 1318 inches or 109 feet.

By giving the drop in inches, I was trying to convey the angle needed when shooting to get the round to go through the metal at 500 or 900 yds

So what jack ass lives in the general direction of the incoming hole in the roof, and is under 600 yds.

All that is assuming it was a 9mm parabellum 115 grain. It could be a fmj 357 mag, or 124grn 9mmp, 123grn 357 sig, or 147grn 9mm. all of which is going to fudge those numbers quite a bit.
 
Posts: 5434 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 23, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cne32507
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quote:
...Recently, an Owner [hangar owner] discovered multiple bullet holes in the roof of their hangar...

Maybe this was caused by a shooter aiming at something above the horizon. Maybe aiming at the moon?


Near the ocean
 
Posts: 1986 | Location: Central Time Zone Florida | Registered: February 03, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So... The slug was able to penetrate a metal roof, then the skin (that I would guess is Aluminum) on the wing and then enter the fuel tank?
Are you guys sure you weren't strafed?


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 8663 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
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Meanwhile, at an airport out west...




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Posts: 39380 | Location: fl | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of V-Tail
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Originally posted by YooperSigs:

So... The slug was able to penetrate a metal roof, then the skin (that I would guess is Aluminum) on the wing and then enter the fuel tank?

Are you guys sure you weren't strafed?
Yup, metal roof then wing. The wing is aluminum, not heavy gauge, and once that skin is penetrated, you're in the fuel tank. On that series of airplanes, the wing itself is the fuel tank.

The V-Tail has an expen$$$ive 40-gallon rubber bladder in each wing, but the Cessna 150 and its close relatives, the aluminum wing itself is the fuel tank.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
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I’m with some of these other guys. No way a shot fired at any distance is having that kind of penetration. I just pulled a fridge out of one of my rentals that had a jacketed 9mm fired through the front from inside the kitchen. Went through the door, down the inside divider, and out the back where it barely stuck in the gypsum board wall.

For it to have come through the roof and onto something directly below it would have to be almost straight down. Assuming it would even penetrate that steel roof there’s no way it would have enough energy to penetrate anything else. If they are bullets, they were fired from above.


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Posts: 13631 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sailor1911
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Originally posted by sigmonkey:


Meanwhile, at an airport out west...


Must have come from an Apache!




Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

“If in winning a race, you lose the respect of your fellow competitors, then you have won nothing” - Paul Elvstrom "The Great Dane" 1928 - 2016
 
Posts: 2915 | Location: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: March 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by a1abdj:

For it to have come through the roof and onto something directly below it would have to be almost straight down. Assuming it would even penetrate that steel roof there’s no way it would have enough energy to penetrate anything else. If they are bullets, they were fired from above.
  • "If they are bullets" -- one was retrieved from the gas tank of the airplane, the second one was on the hangar floor. They are clearly 9mm bullets. Absolutely no doubt. None. What. So. Ever.

  • "it would have to be almost straight down." -- Yup, pretty close. Maybe ten or fifteen degrees from vertical. Almost straight down is correct.

  • "they were fired from above." -- Really? I'm not familiar with any airplanes that have a roll-down window, like a car. Any overflight at low altitude in the vicinity of the airport is likely to be in the 90 mph to 200 mph range. Think about it. Also, think about the demographics. There are quite a few ethnic folks around here, whose culture includes imbibing copious quantities of tequila and discharging firearms into the air to celebrate whatever life event has occurred, never giving a thought to where the bullets are going to come down. Clusters of these folks at various spots within 1 to 3 miles of the airport. Which is more likely, somebody in an airplane firing down at an airport hangar, or somebody who has been drinking, firing into the air? I'll take door number two.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
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Which is more likely, somebody in an airplane firing down at an airport hangar, or somebody who has been drinking, firing into the air? I'll take door number two.


I’d say somebody standing on the roof and shooting into it, as the penetration from bullets fired into the air is likely impossible, and those fired from an airplane unlikely.

To come straight down they have to go straight up. Military has tested this as have others, and a bullet falling out of the sky simply doesn’t have much penetrating power.


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Posts: 13631 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
Which is more likely, somebody in an airplane firing down at an airport hangar, or somebody who has been drinking, firing into the air? I'll take door number two.
I’d say somebody standing on the roof and shooting into it, as the penetration from bullets fired into the air is likely impossible, and those fired from an airplane unlikely.

To come straight down they have to go straight up. Military has tested this as have others, and a bullet falling out of the sky simply doesn’t have much penetrating power.
OK, somebody dragged out a 30 or 40 foot ladder, climbed up onto the roof, and started shooting into the hangar, then climbed back down, packed up the ladder, and disappeared, while avoiding any of the airport users and all of the security cameras.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'll bow to your superior knowledge.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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Originally posted by Sailor1911:

Must have come from an Apache!
Apaches fired arrows at a Comanche? Cool!



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
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Has anyone inspected the roof? Do the holes indicate that they entered from the outside?
To have multiple hits on the same roof seems a little improbable if shot up into the air.
 
Posts: 8112 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sailor1911
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quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by Sailor1911:

Must have come from an Apache!
Apaches fired arrows at a Comanche? Cool!


Thought you would appreciate that one! ;-)




Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.

“If in winning a race, you lose the respect of your fellow competitors, then you have won nothing” - Paul Elvstrom "The Great Dane" 1928 - 2016
 
Posts: 2915 | Location: Wichita, Kansas | Registered: March 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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Originally posted by Ryanp225:

Has anyone inspected the roof? Do the holes indicate that they entered from the outside?
To have multiple hits on the same roof seems a little improbable if shot up into the air.
two holes in the roof, two fired bullets in the hangar, one that entered the airplane wing from above, one that impacted the hangar floor.

Holes in the roof indicate direction of travel was downward, from above the hangar.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 20952 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
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I'll bow to your superior knowledge.



I don’t know why you want to be such smartass, but several posters have given you plenty of explanation as to why it’s not really likely that it could have happened they way it Has been described.

But don’t take my vast knowledge for it, or that of anybody else posting. Go Google it yourself, apply the math you claim you’re good at, and you’ll figure it out for yourself.


________________________



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Posts: 13631 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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