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Gibb, way to put words in my mouth. I never said leave it on all the time. I said if you are driving on snow covered roads (like the last 3 days) use 4WD. If you are arguing that that is less safe then we will just agree to disagree. This thread literally started with the quote “in the snow”.

As for your last statement about true icy situations I literally don’t know how to answer that. Short of chains or studded tires not really sure anyone is safe in true icy conditions. 4WD, AWD, FWD will be equally screwed.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As mentioned, tires are a huge part of the equation. My AWD Audi SQ5 HAD summer performance tires. It was a blast driving an SUV around like a sports car but on a road trip got caught in a freak snow storm going over a pass. Got out of it alive, and switched over to some all seasons as soon as we got back. Not as good as straight up snows, but much better than those summer marbles were!


Tony
 
Posts: 117 | Registered: December 18, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If I ever moved back to Maine I would definitely invest in snow tires. When I used to live there I couldn’t afford such a thing. Tires are huge. Snow tires on one of my Subarus and I would be as comfortable as possible short of staying home. Summer tires on a car like yours in the snow would not be fun.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by gpbst3:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyker:
4WD Auto on my RAM 1500 FTW!



You got that right. That was one of the big features why I bought the ram


I’ll also chime in: haven’t had to use it yet, but it surely was a selling point.

The joke where I lived in NY was that most people use 4x4 to get into trouble instead of using it to get out of trouble.


______________________________________________
"It's good for you, because it's got chia seeds and mayonnaise!"
 
Posts: 12509 | Location: Seattle-ish | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Snow tires even with AWD. I've driven my old Audi Quattro with and without snow tires. It did ok without snow tires, sometimes needing to lock the center differential. Only lock the rear too if in icy conditions.

With snow tires the Audi did even better - much less wheel slip, if any.

Snow tires make a huge difference as the tire compound is optimized for temps below 40 F.

I drove in the CA mountains, when I chased Ski bunnies on the ski slopes, with snow tires and AWD with no chains with no problems. Just had to pay attention to the road feel as I drove.

A year ago, was in 8 inches of unplowed snow, same old Audi, new snow tires, no differentials locked, and it chugged up a slight grade for 1/2 mile to the main road in 1st and 2nd gear with no problem.

I'll always prefer snow tires in snow. As my father used to tell me - the right tool for the job, and snow tires are the right tool for driving in snow/ice.


-.-. --.- -.-. --.- -.-. --.- -.-. --.-
It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.

Ayn Rand


"He gains votes ever and anew by taking money from everybody and giving it to a few, while explaining that every penny was extracted from the few to be giving to the many."

Ogden Nash from his poem - The Politician
 
Posts: 1640 | Registered: July 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The typical 2 wheel vs 4 wheel drive arguement. Roll Eyes

4 wheel drive *is* better for traction and quicker stopping on snow/ice covered roads.
When the roads are bad or closed, you better have a 4x4, if you plan to get anywhere.

Yes, I said closed... emergency services don't stop due to weather/road conditions.




 
Posts: 8818 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
The typical 2 wheel vs 4 wheel drive arguement. Roll Eyes

4 wheel drive *is* better for traction and quicker stopping on snow/ice covered roads.
When the roads are bad or closed, you better have a 4x4, if you plan to get anywhere.

Yes, I said closed... emergency services don't stop due to weather/road conditions.


4wd, depending on the system, can result in worse stopping performance. Having two or more wheels coupled together can interfere with braking.

For best results with stopping, the engine should be decoupled from the wheels, and as many wheels as possible should be decoupled from each other.


-------------
$
 
Posts: 7467 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by vthoky:
quote:
Originally posted by Fredward:
Around here they don't seem to understand that 4 wheel go just ain't 4 wheel stop.


A friend at a previous job had a friend who was into mud bogging and such. Mr. Mud's lesson was, "4WD won't necessarily guarantee you'll get home. In most cases, however, it will guarantee you get farther from home before getting stuck." Big Grin

The first 4WD I had was an International Harvester for fencing work. Mud, snow and highway driving besides all the dirt roads. Todays luxury 4WDs are somewhat lacking and really do need chain assist to do more than the parking lot escape!


--------------------------------

On the inside looking out, but not to the west, it's the PRK and its minions!
 
Posts: 529 | Location: Idaho, west of Beaver Dicks Ferry | Registered: August 22, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by the_sandman_454:
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
I don’t understand your logic. At all. It sounds like you are saying in slippery conditions you don’t engage 4WD except under your “rules” because you don’t think you will be able to control yourself and drive a smart speed. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that’s pretty much what it sounds like.


How do you know if the speed you're intending to operate at is a smart speed if you disallow the vehicle to adequately talk to you about the available traction?

4wd/awd do a very good job of masking poor available traction conditions which nearly invariably leads people to driving overly fast for conditions. It's not a matter of not being able to control yourself or your speed, it's a matter of having available traction masked.

I know a reasonable amount about vehicle control in adverse weather and traction conditions, and understand when the vehicle tries to talk to me about traction conditions. I don't want the vehicle to shut up, I want the vehicle to talk to me, which it more readily does in 2wd.

quote:
2 or 4WD, drive a speed appropriate to conditions. Having it engaged while driving safely just gives you a better margin of safety. If you end up in extremis and you were in 2wd instead of 4WD because of your rules, what purpose does that serve? You are “scaring” yourself into driving slower because you are hobbling your vehicle. That’s not smart. On any level.
. False. You will invariably think traction is significantly better when using 4wd. You'll likely end up driving faster than you should. The speed limit is a maximum, and many people treat that as a minimum, even in winter on slick roads, then can't figure out why they're embedded in another vehicle or a ditch.

The speed I'll be driving at offers an adequate safety margin in case traction degrades. I'm continually looking outside, so I don't get surprised by hills, curves or other features and can adjust my speed accordingly to navigate each new threat safely.

Even my short wheelbase Wrangler with a locked rear differential nicknamed "Sudden Death" can be operated safely in 2wd by an attentive driver with decent ability and knowledge of how the locked differential will cause a yaw toward the side with reduced traction. This is NOT a vehicle in which you may allow your mind to drift or be inattentive while driving, but it can be operated extremely safely.

quote:
My original post stands. Don’t drive like an idiot regardless of drive train. Use the built in safety aspect of your vehicle if it’s available. Use your 4WD in slippery conditions and don’t drive faster. It really is that simple.


My original post stands also: you won't know you should be driving at reduced speed because you don't get an accurate description of available traction as told by your vehicle, should you know how to listen.


What I take from this is only use 4x4 when you absolutely need it but your not allowed to use it because it creates a false sense of traction.

Your vehicle might instantly fly off road if 4x4 is used.


_____________________________

There is no cure for stupidity, you either die from it or with it.
 
Posts: 4553 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: February 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by the_sandman_454:

For best results with stopping, the engine should be decoupled from the wheels, and as many wheels as possible should be decoupled from each other.


Having them coupled together is the whole idea, helps from locking the front end up and sliding.

Removing the forward momentum by putting the trans in neutral will help, but not uncoupling the wheels themselves.




 
Posts: 8818 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Good enough is neither
good, nor enough
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I have a 4 wheel drive truck, but when it snows I like to play a little, so that could be the case too. I will never be too old for a quick donut in the cul de sac or kicking the rear end out on a turn....



There are 3 kinds of people, those that understand numbers and those that don't.
 
Posts: 1897 | Location: Kansas City, MO | Registered: November 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gee I guess I must be doing it wrong. If the roads are snow covered or very slick I put it in 4WD, and in 50+ years of driving I have NEVER slid off the road, spun out, or hit anything! No, I'm not the guy that drives 10MPH when you can safely drive 30 or 40MPH. So maybe, just maybe the fact that at 68 years old I can still slide a dirt car sideways into a turn at 120MPH and exit the turn sideways at 90 or 95MPH makes me a crazy dangerous driver.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: January 24, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Y’all are talking about 4x4 and I wish it was an option for me. My company vehicle is a 2wd pickup. We got 8” of snow today and I had a 120 mile drive to work tonight. Simple solution 400 lbs of sand bags in the back of the truck and drive responsibly. Don’t speed don’t drive like an ass and 4 hours later I’m at my destination. Know your vehicle and know how it drives in all conditions and drive responsibly
 
Posts: 1597 | Registered: March 04, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This too, my first truck was a 73 F350 2WD. In the winter I would put about 1000 pounds in the bed, and with good snow tires it did pretty good in the snow. My first 4WD was a 88 F350 with a 460 and a 5sp. I would still have that truck if not for the salt and rust.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: January 24, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sig77:
I have a 4 wheel drive truck, but when it snows I like to play a little, so that could be the case too. I will never be too old for a quick donut in the cul de sac or kicking the rear end out on a turn....
Yes me too!
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: January 24, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibb:
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
If you haven’t noticed, no one has agreed with you.


If you haven't noticed, I did agree with him, and not you.

quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
So to recap, drive for conditions based on road feel, experience, and observation. Drive slow. Give yourself plenty of time. Don’t underestimate how effective snow tires are. Use available AWD/4WD if available. That’s common sense. Taught by every cold weather driving school and father across America. Except for you. Road zen. I’ll give you last word, I promise.


I've driven in snow country my whole life, and taken advanced defensive/offensive/military driving courses and for a true 4WD system, no you don't leave it on all the time just because you have it.

"Auto 4WD" and AWD systems, sure. But a true 4WD system locks the transfer case and driving extended distance in it when not needed is not good for the system, or for you. As traction is good, the tires will want to grab and any difference between the wheels must be absorbed either by causing a wheel to slip (removing any traction benefits) or by the clutches in the transfer case (shortening the life of your system). If you have a locked differential, this is the case down to the individual axle.

In slush/snow conditions 4WD can be beneficial to help gain traction for starting. For icy conditions, true 4wd can be very dangerous for maintaining control.

But you do you... the rest of us will do what's right.



Having logged nearly a million accident free miles (knock on wood) in cars and light trucks across 48 states and Canada in nearly every imaginable weather condition from blizzards to hurricanes and doing daily commutes on PA & VT roads where salt use was not allowed, I have to 100% agree with Gibb & the sandman .

Sorry Pedro, but your attack against obviously much more experienced drivers is unfounded.

And to Sig77, yes sir! I still love to play in the snow. Donut here. Let the backend hang out there. All good fun.
 
Posts: 1999 | Location: Escaped Upstate NY for TX, then lost my mind and moved to Virginia | Registered: April 08, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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