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Maybe they forgot to turn the hubs in. Oh wait, that was in my last lifetime.



I'm sorry if I hurt you feelings when I called you stupid - I thought you already knew - Unknown
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When you have no future, you live in the past. " Sycamore Row" by John Grisham
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Liberalism is a failure to find pathways to intelligence in your brain. - David Lawrence
 
Posts: 3038 | Location: Kalispell Montana & Florida’s Emerald Coast for the Winter | Registered: December 24, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don’t understand your logic. At all. It sounds like you are saying in slippery conditions you don’t engage 4WD except under your “rules” because you don’t think you will be able to control yourself and drive a smart speed. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that’s pretty much what it sounds like.

2 or 4WD, drive a speed appropriate to conditions. Having it engaged while driving safely just gives you a better margin of safety. If you end up in extremis and you were in 2wd instead of 4WD because of your rules, what purpose does that serve? You are “scaring” yourself into driving slower because you are hobbling your vehicle. That’s not smart. On any level.

My original post stands. Don’t drive like an idiot regardless of drive train. Use the built in safety aspect of your vehicle if it’s available. Use your 4WD in slippery conditions and don’t drive faster. It really is that simple.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
I don’t understand your logic. At all. It sounds like you are saying in slippery conditions you don’t engage 4WD except under your “rules” because you don’t think you will be able to control yourself and drive a smart speed. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but that’s pretty much what it sounds like.


How do you know if the speed you're intending to operate at is a smart speed if you disallow the vehicle to adequately talk to you about the available traction?

4wd/awd do a very good job of masking poor available traction conditions which nearly invariably leads people to driving overly fast for conditions. It's not a matter of not being able to control yourself or your speed, it's a matter of having available traction masked.

I know a reasonable amount about vehicle control in adverse weather and traction conditions, and understand when the vehicle tries to talk to me about traction conditions. I don't want the vehicle to shut up, I want the vehicle to talk to me, which it more readily does in 2wd.

quote:
2 or 4WD, drive a speed appropriate to conditions. Having it engaged while driving safely just gives you a better margin of safety. If you end up in extremis and you were in 2wd instead of 4WD because of your rules, what purpose does that serve? You are “scaring” yourself into driving slower because you are hobbling your vehicle. That’s not smart. On any level.
. False. You will invariably think traction is significantly better when using 4wd. You'll likely end up driving faster than you should. The speed limit is a maximum, and many people treat that as a minimum, even in winter on slick roads, then can't figure out why they're embedded in another vehicle or a ditch.

The speed I'll be driving at offers an adequate safety margin in case traction degrades. I'm continually looking outside, so I don't get surprised by hills, curves or other features and can adjust my speed accordingly to navigate each new threat safely.

Even my short wheelbase Wrangler with a locked rear differential nicknamed "Sudden Death" can be operated safely in 2wd by an attentive driver with decent ability and knowledge of how the locked differential will cause a yaw toward the side with reduced traction. This is NOT a vehicle in which you may allow your mind to drift or be inattentive while driving, but it can be operated extremely safely.

quote:
My original post stands. Don’t drive like an idiot regardless of drive train. Use the built in safety aspect of your vehicle if it’s available. Use your 4WD in slippery conditions and don’t drive faster. It really is that simple.


My original post stands also: you won't know you should be driving at reduced speed because you don't get an accurate description of available traction as told by your vehicle, should you know how to listen.


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Posts: 7467 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I stand by my statement. You’re nuts. Drive for conditions. If you aren’t sure if it’s a safe speed, you are going too fast. You ain’t a road conditions whisperer. Getting into a slide because you want to know what the road is saying is an ass backwards way of looking at it.

Your rules don’t even make sense. “I’ll use it at an intersection if I need traction”. All of the intersections? Just the ones where the road speaks to you? So are you constantly shifting in and out of 4WD while you go to the store to get milk in the snow? Do you wait till you can’t make it up that hill or do you just assume all hills are too slippery? You are the guy in the OP 90 degrees off heading going up a hill. This is when you figured out rule number #2. Smdh

This isn’t well thought out. At all. Enjoy your “plan”.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We had manual hubs on all four of our F series trucks,while in the western states.

The minute I sensed questionable traction sections ,I'd lock the hubs,
and pick a transfer case gear.

About 60% of the time , it was not required,
But 40% of the time I was very glad I took the time to do it.

Another good thing about manual hubs is you can survey 50 feet ahead to get a different perspective.

We explored the back country by ourselves , it would have been very long hikes out had we gotten jambed up

(Pre cell phone days)





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 51677 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
I stand by my statement. You’re nuts. Drive for conditions. If you aren’t sure if it’s a safe speed, you are going too fast. You ain’t a road conditions whisperer. Getting into a slide because you want to know what the road is saying is an ass backwards way of looking at it.

Your rules don’t even make sense. “I’ll use it at an intersection if I need traction”. All of the intersections? Just the ones where the road speaks to you? So are you constantly shifting in and out of 4WD while you go to the store to get milk in the snow? Do you wait till you can’t make it up that hill or do you just assume all hills are too slippery? You are the guy in the OP 90 degrees off heading going up a hill. This is when you figured out rule number #2. Smdh

This isn’t well thought out. At all. Enjoy your “plan”.


I'm sorry you're not a skilled enough driver to read conditions. Your projected assumptions are so far off base, it's not even funny. I think it's amusing though how you make such a big deal about shifting in and out of 4wd. I'm driving a manual transmission in both the truck and jeep, so manipulating the 4wd lever in addition to that is no big deal and can be accomplished in under a second on the fly as long as you're not spinning the drive wheels (depress clutch, pull lever, release clutch).

Many intersections here are plowed and salted promptly, so, yes, it's rather easy to tell in advance which intersections are likely to require 4wd and which are not.

So anyway, if you don't have the confidence in your ability to perform that, get some training or practice until you are able to perform that.


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Posts: 7467 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And I’m sorry you are EXACTLY the driver this whole thread is about. Your idea of the road “talking” to you sounds very zen. Except that the road is talking to you only about the very specific single patch you currently are on. So you roll 10 feet forward or round a corner and it’s all new road. And maybe that new road is saying 4WD would be beneficial right now but you were listening to the old road. All because you think you will be inclined to drive too fast due to overconfidence in 4WD.

It’s painful to even have this discussion because it’s so silly. You are always chasing the road condition because you are being reactive instead of proactive, in a misguided sense of “I’m being safer because otherwise I might drive too fast”. Obviously you have been doing this for years and feel safe continuing which you probably are. Lots of people have gotten through harsh winters on all seasons and fwd for decades. Myself included (Maine, Corolla, nothing special tires being my best personal example)

Bottom line, having a system that makes you safer if you engage it is better than waiting till you need it to engage it. Re read this thread, when no one has agreed with you, you are either prescient or probably need to reconsider your plan.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
And I’m sorry you are EXACTLY the driver this whole thread is about. Your idea of the road “talking” to you sounds very zen. Except that the road is talking to you only about the very specific single patch you currently are on. So you roll 10 feet forward or round a corner and it’s all new road. And maybe that new road is saying 4WD would be beneficial right now but you were listening to the old road. All because you think you will be inclined to drive too fast due to overconfidence in 4WD.

It’s painful to even have this discussion because it’s so silly. You are always chasing the road condition because you are being reactive instead of proactive, in a misguided sense of “I’m being safer because otherwise I might drive too fast”. Obviously you have been doing this for years and feel safe continuing which you probably are. Lots of people have gotten through harsh winters on all seasons and fwd for decades. Myself included (Maine, Corolla, nothing special tires being my best personal example)

Bottom line, having a system that makes you safer if you engage it is better than waiting till you need it to engage it. Re read this thread, when no one has agreed with you, you are either prescient or probably need to reconsider your plan.


I agree, this is a painful discussion.

A system which masks actual road conditions from the average driver will result in said driver driving faster.

This includes all crutches including 4wd, awd, and I'll even throw stability control in there. These things prevent the user from fully understanding the actual conditions. Unfortunately, 100% of the safety margin has been used up by the time these crutches no longer help.

People only drive as fast as they feel comfortable driving, however, with the crutches engaged, that comfortable speed ends up (frequently significantly) higher than without the crutches engaged. Period.

I could do an experiment with you in one of my vehicles and prove this to you.

I cannot understand how you think this puts me in the first category. This actually puts me at the opposite end of the spectrum from that category. That actually blows my mind. There are people who actually know how to drive without crutches and these people are frequently much safer.


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Posts: 7467 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So you lack the self discipline to drive for conditions. So as a crutch you hobble your vehicle to compensate. You couldn’t demonstrate this to me for one simple reason which you of course will fail to acknowledge as fact even though is is demonstrably factual. You are only “reading” the exact patch of pavement you are currently on. So if you decide xyz speed is appropriate due to your “whispering” then 100 feet down the down the road the conditions shift negatively your “read” on the road is now incorrect. So you are using only a portion of your vehicles capability as you now are “reading” the degrading conditions but it’s too late because the conditions have already shifted and you aren’t in 4WD, you just wish you were.

This is an idiotic discussion. Drive for the conditions. Which is a rational decision that is part guess, part feel, and part experience. The road is not an animate object that you can read it’s feelings. If it were it would be a redhead because each step you took those feelings would and will change constantly.

I don’t care how you drive because you are 7 states away. Drive for the conditions which basically means in all cases slow down and give yourself more time. Use your available tools. They still might fail you but pretending like your “feelings” are an accurate gauge of the 100 feet of road ahead of you is ludicrous.

Are you next going to say you don’t like snow tires because they don’t transmit the feel of the road adequately? Use whatever tools are in your toolbox. Slow down. Take your time. Don’t be the idiot driver on the road. But for fucks sake, don’t hobble a system that is safer all conditions being equal.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
So you lack the self discipline to drive for conditions. So as a crutch you hobble your vehicle to compensate. You couldn’t demonstrate this to me for one simple reason which you of course will fail to acknowledge as fact even though is is demonstrably factual. You are only “reading” the exact patch of pavement you are currently on. So if you decide xyz speed is appropriate due to your “whispering” then 100 feet down the down the road the conditions shift negatively your “read” on the road is now incorrect. So you are using only a portion of your vehicles capability as you now are “reading” the degrading conditions but it’s too late because the conditions have already shifted and you aren’t in 4WD, you just wish you were.

This is an idiotic discussion. Drive for the conditions. Which is a rational decision that is part guess, part feel, and part experience. The road is not an animate object that you can read it’s feelings. If it were it would be a redhead because each step you took those feelings would and will change constantly.

I don’t care how you drive because you are 7 states away. Drive for the conditions which basically means in all cases slow down and give yourself more time. Use your available tools. They still might fail you but pretending like your “feelings” are an accurate gauge of the 100 feet of road ahead of you is ludicrous.

Are you next going to say you don’t like snow tires because they don’t transmit the feel of the road adequately? Use whatever tools are in your toolbox. Slow down. Take your time. Don’t be the idiot driver on the road. But for fucks sake, don’t hobble a system that is safer all conditions being equal.


One more time. How do you drive an appropriate speed when your vehicle is lying to you about how much traction is available?

2wd is a decent measure of actual available traction. 4wd, on the exact same road will give a falsely high "feels like" traction. Basing your speed on the inflated "feels like" traction 4wd yields results in higher speeds and longer stopping distances.

How exactly are you still arguing otherwise?


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Posts: 7467 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 1KPerDay
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I had a RWD Pathfinder with THE most aggressive traction control I've ever experienced. I got stuck in like 2" of snow on a flat parking lot once. It was the worst vehicle in the snow I've ever driven. Got rid of it. People sure looked at me like I was a moron as I slithered up the lane in my "4WD" vehicle.

I currently have a Lexus RX350 that's FWD only. Same thing. People assume it's AWD but alas...


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My hovercraft is full of eels.
 
Posts: 2612 | Registered: February 27, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
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I bought the TRD Off Road version of the Tacoma and I throw it into 4WD as often as I possibly can.
Why? Because I fucking paid for it and I can. Cool
I also keep my fog lights on all the time. I'm sure that'll cause someone here to hyperventilate.
 
Posts: 9301 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One more time. You are guessing how the road conditions are just ahead of your vehicle. As you pass over a stretch of road you get a read on that stretch of road. Nothing more. What the road will do directly in front of your tires is a guess. An educated guess based on the current road feel, your experience, yet is is a guess nonetheless.

Your tortured logic aside, you should have saved your money and not bought a 4WD vehicle. You would be better off investing in a set of snow tires and leave it at that. Losing traction and attempting to engage 4WD is a silly silly use of technology and counterproductive. Inertia being what it is, once started it is much harder to stop. Snow tires would have saved you a fortune.

This “discussion” hurts my rationality. Ugh
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
One more time. You are guessing how the road conditions are just ahead of your vehicle. As you pass over a stretch of road you get a read on that stretch of road. Nothing more. What the road will do directly in front of your tires is a guess. An educated guess based on the current road feel, your experience, yet is is a guess nonetheless.

Your tortured logic aside, you should have saved your money and not bought a 4WD vehicle. You would be better off investing in a set of snow tires and leave it at that. Losing traction and attempting to engage 4WD is a silly silly use of technology and counterproductive. Inertia being what it is, once started it is much harder to stop. Snow tires would have saved you a fortune.

This “discussion” hurts my rationality. Ugh


Actually, no, I do have occasion to drive in deep snow, in mud, occasionally while towing a large gooseneck trailer. These scenarios aren't always conducive to 2wd. 4wd isn't a wasted feature in either vehicle. It's just not a crutch I require for normal driving scenarios.

Surprisingly, I also paid for a lot more horsepower in all of these vehicles than I use during normal acceleration and cruise. By your logic I wasted a lot of money on all that extra horsepower and torque I don't routinely use. Like 4wd,though, the power and torque are pretty useful at times.


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Posts: 7467 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Perfection is impossible,
Trying is not…
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I was always taught the 4wd was to get you out of the trouble 2wd got you into.



"Isn't it weird that in AMERICA, our flag & our culture offend so many people - but our benefits do not"
 
Posts: 495 | Location: OKC | Registered: October 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not as lean, not as mean,
Still a Marine
Picture of Gibb
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quote:
Originally posted by lakeray:
I was always taught the 4wd was to get you out of the trouble 2wd got you into.


This... but apparently some think that 4WD is a good excuse for crap tires. Roll Eyes




I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself.
 
Posts: 2847 | Location: Southern Maine | Registered: February 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My logic is that we aren’t talking normal conditions. No one mentioned towing or horsepower but you.

If you haven’t noticed, no one has agreed with you. Couple standard 4x4’s whizzed by and a mile later I passed them in a ditch anecdotes but that’s it. You got a system, great. No one thinks a good system but you, so what though, it works for you.

You literally describe a system or rules, to use your language, where you don’t engage 4WD unless you need to. You are “reading” the road, albeit in actuality you are only actually reading the road directly under your tires yet I digress. If you approach a stretch of road how do you gauge whether it got more shade than the current road, or more runoff, or less salt and gravel because the county truck ran out? Or a couple dozen other parameters that you have no way of knowing? Do you somehow just have a precognitive ability to sense road you haven’t actually traveled on? If your truck starts to lose traction do you stay in 2wd and recover then shift? Do you try to shift as you are sliding? Curious minds are fascinated by this system.

I don’t care about towing or hp, I said you wasted your money because you don’t use a tool that is scientifically and in reality proven to aid driving in slippery conditions only. I think you knew that though and wanted to shift the conversation to less debatable issues because your “rules” are silly and antiquated. A drive across town turns into how many shifts into 4WD? I guess as many as there are slippery intersections. Which begs the question, if this intersection requires traction, will the next one? What about the one after that? Once you hit a slippery patch and go to 4WD does it stay there for rest of trip? Who knows.

Either way, I’m glad you have a system. It’s ridiculously overthought and wildly reactive but it yours.

So to recap, drive for conditions based on road feel, experience, and observation. Drive slow. Give yourself plenty of time. Don’t underestimate how effective snow tires are. Use available AWD/4WD if available. That’s common sense. Taught by every cold weather driving school and father across America. Except for you. Road zen. I’ll give you last word, I promise.
 
Posts: 3485 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cas
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The road doesn't need to talk to me and even of it did it wouldn't matter. Driving in snow and ice, I'm not concerned about the road or the snow, I'm worried about all the other idiots. Which brings the thread back around full circle.


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Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.

 
Posts: 18342 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Not as lean, not as mean,
Still a Marine
Picture of Gibb
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
If you haven’t noticed, no one has agreed with you.


If you haven't noticed, I did agree with him, and not you.

quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
So to recap, drive for conditions based on road feel, experience, and observation. Drive slow. Give yourself plenty of time. Don’t underestimate how effective snow tires are. Use available AWD/4WD if available. That’s common sense. Taught by every cold weather driving school and father across America. Except for you. Road zen. I’ll give you last word, I promise.


I've driven in snow country my whole life, and taken advanced defensive/offensive/military driving courses and for a true 4WD system, no you don't leave it on all the time just because you have it.

"Auto 4WD" and AWD systems, sure. But a true 4WD system locks the transfer case and driving extended distance in it when not needed is not good for the system, or for you. As traction is good, the tires will want to grab and any difference between the wheels must be absorbed either by causing a wheel to slip (removing any traction benefits) or by the clutches in the transfer case (shortening the life of your system). If you have a locked differential, this is the case down to the individual axle.

In slush/snow conditions 4WD can be beneficial to help gain traction for starting. For icy conditions, true 4wd can be very dangerous for maintaining control.

But you do you... the rest of us will do what's right.




I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself.
 
Posts: 2847 | Location: Southern Maine | Registered: February 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ace31
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4x4 is not really 4 wheel drive unless you have locking and or positive traction differentials.
Otherwise you have the right rear and left front tire pulling only.

I don't care if you have 6 wheel drive once you break traction you are DONE. The key to driving in bad road condition is SLOW DOWN.
 
Posts: 2090 | Location: Wherever the voices in my head tell me to go | Registered: April 08, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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