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I suspect your are correct, that it failed due to cheap manufacturing. Well, I paid a low price. I should expect lower quality and plan accordingly.

I did think that annealing referred to a process of heat-treating the mouth portion of the case to...well, I'm not sure why. But I don't know why a casing would "lose" it's annealing. I thought it either was, or was not.

I loaded some old, old brass today. Some of it was .45ACP from Armscorp from 1982 or so. It worked for reloading (after cleaning.) I fired 50 rounds successfully. There was no damage to the case, particularly around the mouth.

Odd.
 
Posts: 13767 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sigcrazy7
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Annealing is a process to make brass softer and more pliable. Being a process, you cannot lose the annealing. Perhaps she mistakenly means that the brass has hardened with age. However, I have never heard of brass hardening except from being worked. Brass is created by drawing a brass button over mandrels to form the case. This definitely works the brass and makes it harder. Most likely the brass was not properly annealed after being drawn during manufacture, not from storage.

I have a case of 303 Brit manufactured in 1944. It shoots fine and doesn't split. If stored brass did "lose its annealing"(hardens), that stuff should be splitting wide open.



[i]
 
Posts: 5307 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Knows too little
about too much
Picture of rduckwor
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quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
Annealing is a process to make brass softer and more pliable. Being a process, you cannot lose the annealing. Perhaps she mistakenly means that the brass has hardened with age. However, I have never heard of brass hardening except from being worked. Brass is created by drawing a brass button over mandrels to form the case. This definitely works the brass and makes it harder. Most likely the brass was not properly annealed after being drawn during manufacture, not from storage.

I have a case of 303 Brit manufactured in 1944. It shoots fine and doesn't split. If stored brass did "lose its annealing"(hardens), that stuff should be splitting wide open.


This. What you got was an excuse that said "We really don't have any idea and it's not worth the costs of our time to find out what was wrong. Here, go away!"

Either way, good that they responded and made you whole.

RMD




TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…”
 
Posts: 19072 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
Annealing is a process to make brass softer and more pliable. Being a process, you cannot lose the annealing. Perhaps she mistakenly means that the brass has hardened with age. However, I have never heard of brass hardening except from being worked. Brass is created by drawing a brass button over mandrels to form the case. This definitely works the brass and makes it harder. Most likely the brass was not properly annealed after being drawn during manufacture, not from storage.

I have a case of 303 Brit manufactured in 1944. It shoots fine and doesn't split. If stored brass did "lose its annealing"(hardens), that stuff should be splitting wide open.


Brass does lose it's annealing as it gets older, I believe from microscopic corrosion. As brass ages, it gets stiffer...... A common practice on the older large diesels (MTU, etc.) that use copper washers (since the engines are dinosaurs the parts sit on the shelf a long time) is to put the copper washers on a metal coat hanger and heat the hell out of them and let them cool off, before using them on the motor to soften them back up so they "crush".
 
Posts: 15558 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
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quote:
Originally posted by rduckwor:
quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
Annealing is a process to make brass softer and more pliable. Being a process, you cannot lose the annealing. Perhaps she mistakenly means that the brass has hardened with age. However, I have never heard of brass hardening except from being worked. Brass is created by drawing a brass button over mandrels to form the case. This definitely works the brass and makes it harder. Most likely the brass was not properly annealed after being drawn during manufacture, not from storage.

I have a case of 303 Brit manufactured in 1944. It shoots fine and doesn't split. If stored brass did "lose its annealing"(hardens), that stuff should be splitting wide open.


This. What you got was an excuse that said "We really don't have any idea and it's not worth the costs of our time to find out what was wrong. Here, go away!"
Agreed. I'm not a metallurgist, but I am a metallurgical junkie (the topic fascinates the engineer in me so I read a lot as well as hang out with a lot of oil & gas metallurgists). I found zilch after checking a few references as well as Google.

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Brass does lose it's annealing as it gets older, I believe from microscopic corrosion.
Corrosion is not loss of annealing, corrosion is a loss of electrons. Annealed brass is one of the alloys susceptible to stress corrosion cracking, but that isn't the OP's issue (if it was, the OP would have had split cartridges).

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
As brass ages, it gets stiffer...... A common practice on the older large diesels (MTU, etc.) that use copper washers (since the engines are dinosaurs the parts sit on the shelf a long time) is to put the copper washers on a metal coat hanger and heat the hell out of them and let them cool off, before using them on the motor to soften them back up so they "crush".
You can't compare copper and brass. Once the copper has been alloyed with the zinc, it behaves as the new alloy. Cartridge brass has about 150% the tensile strength of pure copper, but significantly less conductivity. Additionally, cartridge brass has different cold working and hot working properties than copper. They manipulate the % of zinc in the alloy to achieve the desired cold working and hot working properties.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
 
Posts: 15481 | Location: N. Houston, TX | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I recieved 500 rounds of .38 special a few minutes ago. I'll never know what happened, most likely, but I do know that in my 50 years of gun ownership and shooting I never had a similar experience. Oh well.
 
Posts: 13767 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
'Murica
Picture of szuppo
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Had a similar issue with some .44 magnums which turned out to be too light of a crimp.


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Posts: 3132 | Location: Canfield, Ohio | Registered: October 31, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
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OP,
I once had a brand new S&W scandium 357 I was going to carry off duty, so I had to qualify with it.

I went to the range and promptly kablammoed it on the second round....the first round was a squib and the second one did the work of two.

I called S&W to see how to send it in for repair and they asked what kinda ammo I was using, (Winchester) and they asked to send it along with the gun.

a week goes by and I call to give them my Visa number and the gunsmith who was working on it talked with me. they never wanted a card number and repaired it free of charge and forwarded it to Winchester to have them investigate the ammo.

I never heard anything further about the ammo.

Glad that you and your gun didn't get hurt



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers


 
Posts: 4960 | Location: 35-46.02N 077-55.54W | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And the latest on the same issue-I opened the new case sent to me by Remington yesterday and headed for the range. I fired them in a Taurus Non-View-squib on round 3. Okay, maybe the super light gun was acting as a bullet puller. Loaded the Kimber K6s. Round 2 tied up the cylinder with a squib. I went home and emailed Remington. They sent me another shipping label and promised reimbursement this time. Hope I get the check before they go bankrupt!
 
Posts: 13767 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by Fredward:
maybe the super light gun was acting as a bullet puller.
I had a Ruger LCR 9mm revolver that I bought for my wife. Five round cylinder. Ruger's manual suggested that this revolver could be sensitive to the crimp in ammunition and suggested testing by measuring OAL of a cartridge, loading five rounds, firing four, and then measuring OAL once again of the remaining, unfired, cartridge.

With my handholds, experimenting with crimping, the fifth bullet in every cylinder walked forward anywhere from .020" to .050". I tried store-bought ammunition and on every trial the forward migration was anywhere from .020" to fully out of the brass case.

I sold this revolver, with full disclosure, to a forum member here and replaced it with the same type Ruger LCR, but in .357 Magnum. No problems here to date with any store-bought ammunition. I am not set up to load .38 SPL or .357 Magnum, as I don't shoot enough of that to make it worth while.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17478 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
SIGforum Official
Eye Doc
Picture of bcereuss
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quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by Fredward:
maybe the super light gun was acting as a bullet puller.
I had a Ruger LCR 9mm revolver that I bought for my wife. Five round cylinder. Ruger's manual suggested that this revolver could be sensitive to the crimp in ammunition and suggested testing by measuring OAL of a cartridge, loading five rounds, firing four, and then measuring OAL once again of the remaining, unfired, cartridge.

With my handholds, experimenting with crimping, the fifth bullet in every cylinder walked forward anywhere from .020" to .050". I tried store-bought ammunition and on every trial the forward migration was anywhere from .020" to fully out of the brass case.

I sold this revolver, with full disclosure, to a forum member here and replaced it with the same type Ruger LCR, but in .357 Magnum. No problems here to date with any store-bought ammunition. I am not set up to load .38 SPL or .357 Magnum, as I don't shoot enough of that to make it worth while.


What is happening? Is the bullet moving forward in the fifth cartridge from shock and concussion? Is the pressure from 4 shots squeezing the remaining cartridge pushing the bullet forward? This is something I have not heard of...
 
Posts: 2199 | Location: (Occupied) Northern Minnesota | Registered: June 24, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
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quote:
Originally posted by bcereuss:
What is happening? Is the bullet moving forward in the fifth cartridge from shock and concussion? Is the pressure from 4 shots squeezing the remaining cartridge pushing the bullet forward? This is something I have not heard of...
The following, from the 9mm supplement to the Ruger LCR Owners' Manual:
quote:
Also note that some ammunition may not securely crimp the bullet in the car- tridge. An improperly crimped bullet will move forward in the cartridge. This will only become an issue if the round moves forward enough to protrude out of the front of the cylinder. Should this happen, the cylinder will not be able to index to fire as the nose of the bullet will hit the outside of the barrel or frame. Should this happen, discontinue use of that particular brand or type of ammunition.
Also, from the manual for the LCR:
quote:
AMMUNITION CHECK

Due to the light weight of the LCR®, inertial forces to ammunition during firing could possibly unseat a bullet from its crimp in the cartridge casing. The LCR® has been tested with a variety of popular ammunition manufactured to SAAMI industry standards and has not demonstrated any tendency to unseat bullets. However, before placing the LCR into service, it is recommended that you:
  1. At a range or other suitable location, fully load your revolver with the ammunition you wish to test in accordance with the safety and loading instructions in this manual.

  2. Fire four of the five rounds in accordance with the safety and firing instructions in this manual.

  3. Unload the four fired cases and the unfired round in accordance with the safety and unloading instructions in this manual. Closely inspect the unfired round for signs that the bullet has moved forward out of the case. For jacketed and lead bullets with a cannelure or crimp groove, check to see if the bullet has moved forward enough so that the case mouth is no longer located in the bullet cannelure or crimp groove. For lead bullets without a cannelure or crimp groove, there should be no detectable movement of the bullet. If the bullet has moved as just described, do not use that brand of tested ammunition, and repeat this test with another brand until one is found that the bullet does not unseat during this test.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17478 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Essayons
Picture of SapperSteel
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quote:
Originally posted by Fredward:
I got a call from Remington today. She said the ammunition I had sent was 17 years old. She said that sometimes, after a prolonged period, the brass can "lose it's annealing" after prolonged periods, resulting in squibs from lack of neck tension. . .


This is pure bullshit.

Remington is in the toilet financially, and clearly it is circling the drain operationally now, too.


Thanks,

Sap
 
Posts: 3399 | Location: Arimo, Idaho | Registered: February 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Avoiding
slam fires
Picture of 45 Cal
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Reloader here for about fifty years,the umc brass is what I chunk in the scrap bucket.
The company is out for squeezing out all possible profit.
The 38 brass the op has the problems with is caused by Remington having its brass spun about three k thinner than quality ammo manufactures.
I experienced this fact decades ago when loading a new jacket bullet into their [umc]cases,bullet would fall on its own down to powder.
 
Posts: 21393 | Location: Georgia | Registered: February 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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quote:
I experienced this fact decades ago when loading a new jacket bullet into their [umc]cases,bullet would fall on its own down to powder.


I've seen this too, but not all umc brass, just some older stuff I picked up somewhere. It is truly some crappy stuff, though. I've had a squib with it, too, but thankfully caught it before firing a second round.

MikeinNC, having shot several of those scandium Smiths in .357, the thought of having one blow up in ones hand is extremely unpleasant. Those things feel like they're exploding in your hand when they function as intended...I wouldn't want to be holding one when something went wrong. Glad you're ok, and still (presumably) have your fingers to type about it!
 
Posts: 2708 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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