I am quite mechanically inclined and could use some advice on my tentative plans to lighten, decrease take up, lessen creep and install an adjustable trigger over travel stop on a P220 Super Match. I have an X5 so I know what a excellent trigger is like. I am looking for a 2# trigger pull. I know you guys are probably sick of this type of question so I will only boar you once. I promise!

Starting with the trigger I see a tab sticking out on the very front inside. This appears to be the factory stop. I am planing to drill and tap this tab for a hex head set screw that will act as an adjustable over travel setting. Good idea or bad?

The trigger bar is next. I am planning to have some material tig welded where the bar hits the sear. I will file this material until 50% of the take up is gone. Good idea or bad?

The hammer is next. I am considering removing about .020 from the sear contact to decrease creep. I know it is frowned upon but this is strictly a range and home defense piece. I do not carry this p220. I also am going to look for a lighter sear spring. Good idea or bad?

I am going to replace the main spring with an 18# wolf spring and polish all interference surfaces.

Any suggestions or possible bad effects from rework would be greatly appreciated.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: peppilepew 226,

Like brain surgery, you only want to do this if you do a lot of them. What you are suggesting may result in a shorter trigger reset, lighter pull weight, and an all around better trigger, on the other hand it could result in light primer strikes, slam fires, and compromised safety functions. Good luck.

As good as the Super Match is ~ it is not a 1911. I have one and I have done some 'polishing' and trigger work and it is damm nice. It still is not nor will it ever be what a high end 1911 will be, IMO. I know the Grayguns folks are legendary but even that is alot to ask of them. I don't see a 2 lb trigger but I could be wrong. I have improved most all of my Sigs (except X-5 ~ no need) and would never attempt to take it that far. .02

i don't know if Grayguns could, or would, get the trigger to 2lbs...and i haven't seen their work on a Super Match, but

i remember shooting an early X-Five, in .40, that Bruce worked on (yes, it can be improved)and i think it would give a 1911 a very hard run for the money. maybe not a bulleyes gun, but certainly any IPSC gun. the trigger really did break like glass and the reset was unbelievably short

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
As good as the Super Match is ~ it is not a 1911. I have one and I have done some 'polishing' and trigger work and it is damm nice. It still is not nor will it ever be what a high end 1911 will be, IMO. I know the Grayguns folks are legendary but even that is alot to ask of them. I don't see a 2 lb trigger but I could be wrong. I have improved most all of my Sigs (except X-5 ~ no need) and would never attempt to take it that far. .02

I agree that a 1911 is a more workable piece. All the research to make a 1911 great has been done. I intend to document the changes so others may improve their triggers. That is, if it works. The sear spring may be difficult to locate.

Peppe,
First of all dont listen to naysayers. There are no naysayers yet on this thread but Im sure it will happen. Anyone, yes I repeat, anyone can do a competent trigger action enhancement provided they know what they are doing. It sounds like you know what you are doing so far.

Heres a few suggestions:
1. When you are making any changes to the geometry of the hammer or sear you should reassemble and test the pistol ad nauseum. I like to polish all moving parts first and check for proper fitting upon my first reassebly. Then I insert a snap cap into the barrel and a foam earbud into the hammer well. I then check for function and gauge the pull weight with an accurate meter. I find that any new sig can have a smoother DA and a pound lighter SA by simply polishing all friction surfaces correctly and fitting parts properly.

2. When you go to the range to test fire your pistol be sure to load the first couple of magazines with only TWO rounds just in case you have hammer-follow with slam-fire.

Okay on to your questions.
I do not own nor have I worked on a P220 yet. If the trigger has a tab that can be accurately tapped, and a stop screw can be installed without interfering with the works, then I would proceed with the overtravel stop. I have been daydreaming for months about inventing a good overtravel stop for P-Series pistols. I am currently looking into a few different options but for now I have simply put the loop side of hook-and-loop fasteners (velcro) on the back of the trigger and on the frame where the trigger hits it. It works well but is only a stop-gap solution. I would love to see what you come up with on this problem.

On the trigger bar you say you would like to add material to the bar where it hits the sear. Im pretty sure you meant where the bar hits the safety lever. Either way Im not completely sure what you are suggesting. Elaborate if you could.

I think you have a good idea on the hammer. You might be suggesting too much material though. I have removed less than that and had great results lowering creep. I like my SA to feel like a good wheelguns' SA and break like glass. I decrease the creep a little less on a carry gun. Im not sure where you are going to find a lighter sear spring. Others have tried, including myself, installing a DAK sear spring in a DA/SA pistol. It is supposed to lighten up the pull weight but it the improvement is only marginal. You can slightly bend the tine that is on the upper part of the spring when it is installed and decrease pull slightly but I do not advocate this. It shortens the length of the tine which can lead to malfuntion. If you can find a lighter spring with the exact dimensions of the factory one then I would proceed cautiously.

Others will tell you never to go below 19# on the mainspring for fear of light primer strikes. I fell this is a moot point because I feel you can reach your goal of a 2 to 2.5 lb pull weight with no creep or overtravel without replacing the mainspring.

For instance, my P229 Elite ST has all its factory unaltered springs but with a good action enhancement job I have effectively smoothed out the perceived pull weight of the DA to where it "feels" only a little heavier than my 229 SAS DAK! It is smooth from end to end with no stacking and an impercepable break. The SA is metered at exactly 40 ounces (2.5 lbs) with no discernable creep. And of course with the factory installed SRT it has a great reset.

I suggest you carry on with your project but keep us all updated on your progress. We want to know the goods and the bads so we can all be safer and better.

Peppe,
I just had a lightbulb go off. I have been pouring over how to install or create an overtravel stop for P Series pistols.

Then the moment: why work on overtravel when you can change the break point on the trigger and move it back in the stroke effectively negating the need for an overtravel stop. My P229 Sport has a trigger that rests against the sear in SA mode at .06 inches from the frame. THis is just enough distance to release the sear and then stop securely against the frame. My P226 W German measured .09 inches from the back of trigger to frame. It definately needed an overtravel stop.

But instead I removed the safety lever and then carefully removed a total of .02 inches of material from the surface of the safety lever that meets the trigger bar. I removed material in .005 inch increments and then reassembled the pistol to check my progress. The result is a trigger that; along with a good action clean up, is better than the factory tuned P229 Sport trigger. I lowered the distance from the back of trigger to frame to about .06 inches. I think that is perfect.

Also, I understand now what you want to do to reduce take-up. I endorse it. Just dont put too much material on as to not let the trigger naturally reset.

forty,

I have proceeded with four steps. I took some material from the hammer to reduce creep. I would say about .010 or less. I went in small increments. I have reduced trigger creep by half with no slam firing issues. I polished the sear and hammer surfaces to remove the gritty feel. I couldn't find a lighter sear spring. I did exactly what you said before reading your post. I bent the upper spring tang into a stepped configuration to remove some of the preload. It did lighten the trigger pull. I don't have a gauge so I can't give numbers.I didn't think of shortening the safety lever. I installed a 17# main spring and that helped too. I use Federal primers that are somewhat softer so light pin hits are not an issue. I reassemble and test after each mod so if something causes a problem I know which mod is the most likely suspect. I can put this gun together in my sleep. I used to have a TIG welder that I miss terribly now. Everything has helped. I am looking to change the trigger position further back like my X5. I have approached this problem by contemplating lengthening the trigger bar. I need to modify the trigger bar to safety lever first. I can see about .030 take up so I will add about .040 to the tang that contacts the safety lever and file to fit. I am concerned with reset clearance so this will be filed gradually until there is about .005 of reset clearance.There are a few customers of mine that weld so getting this done is no problem. I have just been super busy as distractions seem to creep in there. I will keep you posted and when I am satisfied there will be a trigger pull gauge measurement and pictures of the modified pieces. You gave me another idea that may help.

Cliff,

This message has been edited. Last edited by: peppilepew 226,

Peppe,
Cool Im glad things are going well. You are doing exactly what I would do. If you want to change the rest postition of the trigger you have it right on. Just add material to the tang on the trigger bar until you are happy. Proceed that way and you will have positive results. If you want to change the postition of the trigger when it breaks and move it further back in the stroke thereby negating the need for an overtravel stop then do this.

I reverse engineered my P229 Sport, which was hand tuned by the factory, because the distance from the back of the trigger to the frame when the shot breaks was measured to about .06 inches. So there is just enough length to break the shot and that is it. Beautiful. My normal P series pistols measured .09 and .11 from the frame which made me look into an overtravel stop. It is no need. I noticed that the safety lever on the sport was a slightly different shape than the normal P series enabling the trigger to break from further back. I simply replicated these conditions by grinding .005 inches off of the surface of the safety lever that meets the trigger bar. I reassembled and tested. I did this 4 times for a total of .02 inches removed and now my normal P series pistols break with the trigger about .06 inches from the frame. Perfect with no overtravel. Good luck and keep me informed.

uh ??? guys love this thread but, could you post some pics to help clarify exactly what-how is being change ? Please

quote:

Originally posted by dragonblood:
uh ??? guys love this thread but, could you post some pics to help clarify exactly what-how is being change ? Please

When completed I will share pics and numbers so others may kill some spare time. I would say within 2 weeks I should be done.

What happened with forty? Banned?

he was asked to back off taking a thread somewhere, he didn't take the hint

First to go is Freedom of Speech...What is next?

quote:

Originally posted by huskerlrrp:
First to go is Freedom of Speech...What is next?

M3h. This is private property and he was being rude. You can get away with saying pretty much anything on this forum if you go about it the right way.

If you're done I'd like to see pics of what you've done.

Very interesting stuff!

One area of concern with lighter and smaller sear surfaces is the possibility of the hammer following the slide. I have thought that a better radiusing of the bottom slide point that actually contacts the hammer could lessen the hammer cocking impact, and the resultant hammer/sear "bounce" that currently occurs.

Basically, instead of a near 90 deg corner of the bottom of the slide smacking hammer backwards, have a slight ramp there to increase the time duration as it pushes back the hammer. Never bothered with my slide as I don't have the pull anywhere near you are attempting to get, but might make a big difference for you.

Just a thought.

Peppi,
I cant wait to see and hear of your results.

I have just about completed the mods. I have run into one problem that since it is a range gun it is not something I will lose sleep over. The safety will only stop the hammer at the second stage or rest position. I will need to add some material to the trigger bar in order to block bar movement or possibly change the left safety lever to a different style that blocks hammer movement. I read in an earlier post that there are differences in the safety interlocks from model to model. I haven't measured pull yet but it is about half or less. There are no slam fires or hammer follow through problems. Trigger creep is halved or less. Take up is 1/3 or less. Reset is negligible. Trigger stops right after sear release. I am looking for some acrylic adhesive backed Teflon tape to line all the friction surfaces I can in the frame. I am thinking Molydisulfide will be the best dry lubricant. Keeping the gun clean will then be much easier. I am in the process of mounting a Burris Fastfire. I have to make a mount and drill the slide as I can't find a dedicated mount. I didn't lengthen the trigger bar as originally planned. I have big hands and long fingers so I let it go. Keep in touch as the completion results and pics will be soon. I will have actual numbers to go by. I am thinking near minimum trigger pull for this model. There are just too many friction elements to reach the desired 2lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by Xer0:
One area of concern with lighter and smaller sear surfaces is the possibility of the hammer following the slide. I have thought that a better radiusing of the bottom slide point that actually contacts the hammer could lessen the hammer cocking impact, and the resultant hammer/sear "bounce" that currently occurs.

Basically, instead of a near 90 deg corner of the bottom of the slide smacking hammer backwards, have a slight ramp there to increase the time duration as it pushes back the hammer. Never bothered with my slide as I don't have the pull anywhere near you are attempting to get, but might make a big difference for you.

Just a thought.

I will look at that area and consider your idea. I think it is a good one. I only dropped maybe a 1/2lb of sear spring pressure to be safe. It was the trigger creep that was driving me nuts. Lets hope that Sig extends safety margins to account for wear and age of springs.