"Why don't you just move out?" Yes, California gun laws are oppressive. Most other states are gun friendly. But, to talk as if simply moving out would solve the problem is ignorant.
Personal hardship of the person leaving California aside, that kind of mindset would create bigger problems.

"Blue state" people are not so "Blue" as you might think. I was able to convince most people with anti gun attitude to change their attitude or at least rethink their position again with positive points of gun rights that they were never exposed to in mind. This was surprisingly easy for two reasons. Not so many "anti gun" people are "totally anti gun." Also, none of them had solid logical of philosophical base regarding their anti gun rights position established in their mind.

Does this mean we have an advantage? Absolutely not. If you're not aware of this, let me break it to you. "Red state" people are not so "Red" as you might think either. I've talked to variety of people on both sides of the gun rights issue. Vast majority of people on either side of the issue do not have a solid mental principles involving individual rights issue. And, that includes gun rights. Simply moving to a "Red state" thinking it's a gun rights safe heaven will not solve the problem. That gun rights strong hold do not exist. I've talked to self proclaimed "pro gun" people from "Red states," and it was clear that given the influence, most of those people can be led to agree to every anti gun measure short of total ban that was tried in the "Blue states." And, the reason why it was so is the very same reason why I was able to influence the anti gun people in the "Blue states" with ease.

If "Red State" people who are pro gun who has not even been exposed much to negative side of armed society can be lead that way, it will only be worse when their society gets more and more urbanized with the social structure more and more resembling "Blue states." More population density with heavy portion of that population relying in relatively low wages, vulnerable to socialist agenda, fearful of rising violent crime rate and growing distrust for other people. That Earl next door with a shotgun may have looked like just a part of the landscape in the past, but it's no longer so.

Guns no longer have the same meaning to them. Before, it was just mom and pops hunting food, shooting for leisure, defending property against some would be criminals in very rare occasion. Now, they're up against criminals armed with guns who might be waiting for them in every street corner. Not something they can do something about with a shotgun or a pistol or two lying around the house. Keep in mind that even most "Red state" people who are pro gun don't carry. Even to them, guns were just a tool that did them not much harm that was useful at times. The thought of carrying a gun with a mind set to be alert and use it when necessary, and possibly taking life as a result, may be too much for a large portion of them. Do not assume that Bubba is a dedicated pro gun rights person just because his pickup truck as a gun rack. That Bubba might show the same cringe reaction anti gun people show to the idea of concealed weapon carry because he enjoys "it won't happen to me" type denial just as much as the anti gun people do, but at a sub conscious level.

With organized criminals they'll feel even more helpless. With the government growing and growing with more urbanization, it becomes more power hungry. But, helpless feeling people will look up on it to keep them safe. Of course, the government can't be around everyone at every time to protect them. So they'll just end up introducing more and more oppressive laws, with crime control as an excuse, and the stage is set for gun rights oppression.

California was not an anti gun state from the beginning. Above is what I believed how it happened, and what I believe is happening in other states as well. Look at NYC, Chicago. Washington is lot more gun friendly than California. But, look at what's happening in Seattle. Those "assault weapon ban" bills Seattle area representative introduces to Washington state congress on a yearly basis is even more insane than that of California. Do you think Texas is safe? Look at what's happening in Dallas.

California soil and water do not generate anti gun people. It was because socialists and elitists types successfully manipulated urban social structure to make the majority with no solid individual rights philosophy think guns are bad. All those elements will be present in your state sooner or later, meaning that whatever happened in California can happen in your state. If California gun rights become a total loss, it will not be the end of it. It will just become a start signaling to all anti gun movements that they can wreck all other states using California as a manual.

Do you think they'll recognize their fail when they see California's gun rights oppression failing to stop crime? Would they stop? See their error and change their ways? You of all people should know better. Since when was gun control's ultimate goal ever about crime?

You might be content with just giving California away. The people behind anti gun rights movement will not be content with just California.

I couldn't have said it better, TestPilot. We are all Americans and when the rights of the people in one state are taken, particularly in one as large and influential as CA, then rights of the rest of us are in jeopardy as well.

It is pathetic when politicians in Sacramento, Chicago, or NYC pass draconian gun laws in the name of keeping the public safe. Patrick Henry once said, "Give me Liberty or give me death!", not give me security or give me death. I'm sure King George III would have provided all the safety and security the Colonists had wanted and then some. What I want to hear from our elected leaders everywhere is how they intend to keep us free.

Trampling underfoot the Constitution will never ensure our freedom. The fight of Californians to keep their Second Amendment rights is a struggle we should all join. Hopefully the NRA and other gun advocacy groups will be able to mount a very strong legal challenge to this latest outrage from the CA governor and legislature. If that doesn't work, perhaps we should mount a march on Sacramento to strongly (but nonviolently) protest what has happened. I would happily drive the 1500 or so miles it would take me to get there.

I'm sorry that Californian's have let it come to this. But California is fucked up on SO many levels, gun control is just one of them. From illegal immigration, to taxation, to the AFU Government and the Liberals with a stranglehold on the state... the list is so long...

Gun rights are something to never take for granted and I believe CA residents have lost thus far due to allowing one after another little battles to go unfought or un-won. Those of us in free states watch CA with a keen eye to ensure we don't fall for the same B/S as occurred out there.

I support CA residents in their fight for gun rights, however it is hard to have empathy for those who seem to not be helping themselves. Where are the demonstrations? Where are the people rallying outside the capital when the votes are being taken? Where are the court challenges? The civil disobedience? I just don't see it. Maybe this stuff is happening and the liberal media is keeping is suppressed...

Stand up CA and we will support you. However every state has their own burden, so don't expect the cavalry to ride and to fix your broke ass state. Somethings you have to do for yourself, or at least start to do...

I have to agree with Rhino on this one. You want our support you gotta start to help yourselves.

I work for a company based in Cali and spend a good deal of time there. A good example of your problem as I see it is the last time I was out there a couple weeks back. I went to two gun stores and the first one had a stack of handouts explaining this proposed (now passed) bill. None of the six or so employees at the gun shop said anything about it, I just noticed them when we were paying and asked about it. They then told me about it. The second shop had nothing on it. The guy I shoot with is a member of a gun club and hadn't heard about it at all.

Where was the guy standing in the shop handing them out, where was the guy outside telling all the people walking in about the bill? Why didn't anybody spend the time to make sure all the gun clubs and gun shops knew what was going on? And these shops were in the Sacramento area. If you can't get people to work on getting the information to the people in the capital where are they working on it? Where did the commercials go advertising the nature of the bill?


I understand that just saying move out is not a perfect answer but neither is asking us to stand with you when as I see it not enough of you are standing at all.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Stand up CA and we will support you. However every state has their own burden, so don't expect the cavalry to ride and to fix your broke ass state. Somethings you have to do for yourself, or at least start to do...

Many of us did. I wrote several letters to representatives and to the governor. I called my friends and urged them to do the same. I went to my local gun shops and spoke to the staff and owners urging them to spread the word.

It just wasn't enough.

Unfortunately these little steps towards making owning a gun unreasonable are not being stopped and it costs a lot more to fight them after the fact.

I just hope that these laws aren't looked on favorably in other states or they may be adopted there as well if there isn't enough resistance.

-Kirk

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
I'm sorry that Californian's have let it come to this. But California is fucked up on SO many levels, gun control is just one of them. From illegal immigration, to taxation, to the AFU Government and the Liberals with a stranglehold on the state... the list is so long...

Gun rights are something to never take for granted and I believe CA residents have lost thus far due to allowing one after another little battles to go unfought or un-won. Those of us in free states watch CA with a keen eye to ensure we don't fall for the same B/S as occurred out there.
...

One of the point I was trying to make is that those of you in the free states did not have such keen eyes and zeal for gun rights except for small number of people such as yourself. That's why the same thing is happening in places like NYC, Checago, etc. And, it is already spreading far out side of CA. If you think you are in a strong hold, I was trying to tell you that strong hold only existed in your mind. Virtually all free state people who identified themselves as pro gun that I talked to about the issue were willing to accept incremental anti gun measures tried in CA, MA, etc.

Most did not fear gun registration. Most did not fear licensing. If you were expecting "Why do I need a license to exercise my freedom?" type answer followed by sound reasoning, you'll be in for a huge disappointment. I've lost count on how many times I've heard stuff like "Yeah, I think they should be licensed so that idiots can't go around having guns." Most pro gun people are pro gun by habit, not by trained reasoning. Scare them enough with biased media with incidents like Virginia tech with a little does of sensationalism like child molesting, etc. mixed in here and there, their cling to individual rights would shatter with ease.

Demonstrations? Rally outside the Capitol? Court challenges? Civil disobedience? I have an explanation to each and every one of those, but I won't because that's not the point. None of those would change the overall anti gun flow as long as the people is lost, so the only way to get the rights back is to get the people back. That's where the work is to be done.

But, those people in free states are not so well guarded either. Do you think CA is the only state that elects people like Boxer and Feinstein? Look at MA. They elected Ted Kennedy until his death. I'm not trying to stir up a pissing match. The point is people is lost, and those lost people elects such people, and people are still being lost as we speak. And, it's not something that can be fixed with rally and letters to congress, civil disobedience, etc.

I'm not trying to get you to fight my battle. The anti gun people have already taken the fight to you, and we're not doing so well. NYC, Chicago. Sure, it's just a few cities. But, it's the most influential spots on U.S. Seattle, center of attention of Washington is anti gun. Same with Dallas in Texas. Too many times, a larger population point grows that becomes hugely influential we lose it to anti gun people. Why is that? To me, it means that given a certain condition, those free state people can be readily turned into anti gun supporters even before they realize it. What are you going to do about that in YOUR state? Or, are you just going to say "ahh, big city librals. they can keep it." just like some pro gun people treat CA?

Californian gun right advocates are fighting and fighting hard. But, keeping mind that we are in the minority fighting for an unpopular cause. That means the way we fight is different. CA has the most oppressive "assault weapon" laws in the whole U.S. with felony charge lying around every corner. But, AR-15 or AK variants was not being stopped, and modified in anyway to make it legal. Why do you think that is. If you think we don't bring legal challenges anywhere there's an argument, I can tell you you're wrong. Why no rallies and demonstrations? We're a know minority. How many anti gun letters, demonstrations, rallies ever changed your mind? Same thing. Holding a picket does nothing to persuade and win people over.
Persuasion is a better tool for that, and that's where I work on. I can tell you that I probably won more antis over through having a well reasoned conversations whenever I had a change then holding a picket that buys nothing more than a "Who're those weirdos?","Gun freaks."

I have sympathy for CA gun owners believe it or not...but I want to see CA gun owners take control first. Not whimper on the internet about how others need to help...

As I mentioned in another post, I was there in '89 when the assault weapons ban passed. Many of the CA gun owners there chose NOT to fight...I heard excuse after excuse after excuse stating "it doesn't affect me...why should I care" from gun owners. I still recall at the San Diego Fish and Game Range listening to idiots asking "Why do you need an AR-15......going to war or something?" As long as the sacred trap guns were not affected...many of the shooters rolled over and simply took it.

I still recall writing CA elected officials, calling them, etc...only to be asked "Are you a citizen of CA"...when I told them no I was stationed there I was basically told go away.....The funny thing was that I wrote more to CA officials about the gun ban than many of the CA citizen gun owners did....I still recall how some didn't even know who their elected officials were.

I have yet to hear CA shooters on CAGUNS, etc talk about rolling back the provision for allowing NON CA citizens to move there with their weapons...many of the same CA shooters figured "Who cares...mine are registered and I'm not leaving". Basically the CA government designed the ban to reduce the number of guns and support against the bill naturally through attrition. It worked. Now we have even stronger gun / ammo bans coming. The gun banners are getting more serious.....but CA gun owners are largely sitting on the net whining. Eventually they will start banning gun ranges as environmental hazards....and CA gun owners will bitch some more....but willingly go along with it since they do not want to give up the climate, or a higher paying job. NOW IS THE TIME TO BANKRUPT the state. Now is the time to stop paying sales taxes in CA and buy goods from free states. NOW IS THE TIME to STOP paying income taxes to CA. NOW IS THE TIME to let the CA government go under....a new more insightful govt will emerge....one that embraces freedoms.....as they will see that freedom is what causes success. You will never be free as long as the powers that have been, remain in office there. You will continually have your rights eroded and trampled upon...WHY? Because they know gun owners there will roll over. The ONLY option you have at this point is to move to a state where freedom exists.

Using your rationale....if you were in East Germany...you would have stayed rather than escaped to the west.

Study history and see what brings change.

Like I said, the minute we (in any state) rest is when the anti-guns are going to strike. So we can't let our guard down.

Here in VA, things aren't perfect but we have organizations that are ACTIVELY fight, like VCDL and the NRA. For several years we've had an anti-gun governor who has vetoed critical legislation - sometimes we've been able to override the veto, sometimes not. Now that he's on his way out, we are organized to get a Republican back in to continue our drive to regain more of our freedoms.

People organize and go to the state legislature to make their voices heard. Rallies are held and people take notice.

Whatever CA's gameplan is to make changes, that is CA's gunowners decision. But if they can't get their act together, no one else is going to do it for them. Maybe the jobs, the houses, and the beaches are enough to make you forget your gun rights.

And yes, I will not live in a state that restricts my rights in that manner. I had several job opportunities in DC / MA and turned them all down. I'd do the same with a job in CA or other oppressive states.

I have deep sympathy for anyone living in Kali that wants our Constitutional Laws upheld in general.

The people there need to stand up for what they believe in eg. Prop 8.

Gun laws is just one in a myriad of reasons I'll never have an address there.

In regards to some of the comments made; WE ARE FIGHTING! Unfortunately we are seriously outnumbered by anti gun forces. Add to that a severely skewed voting process leads to these anti gun policies. "Our" decisions are vastly decided by anti gun LA and SF area voters due to them being most populated. If those outside of CA spent time on a site like Calguns.net, they would see all that was being done.

Very interesting on both sides.

The only thing I would like to address is Testpilots comments on "winning the people" back. Old friend, I say with the most sincerity it is now a lost cause. Most of the "people" don't care to be won. They are content in the suburban bubble, and unless they begin to tax cable TV, or soda to support gun control, they could care less. The little education they get day to day is a quick blurb on the TV or radio as they go about their day to day life doing what makes them happy. And guess whose side they hear there?

quote:

California was not an anti gun state from the beginning.

Really? If this is true, why is California only one of six states that does not have the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in its constitution?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Very interesting on both sides.

The only thing I would like to address is Testpilots comments on "winning the people" back. Old friend, I say with the most sincerity it is now a lost cause. Most of the "people" don't care to be won. They are content in the suburban bubble, and unless they begin to tax cable TV, or soda to support gun control, they could care less. The little education they get day to day is a quick blurb on the TV or radio as they go about their day to day life doing what makes them happy. And guess whose side they hear there?

But, average people in the "free states" are not that far off from that description either. If we just let go, then it's not just CA we're losing. That's what I am trying to tell.

quote:

Originally posted by TestPilot:
But, average people in the "free states" are not that far off from that description either. If we just let go, then it's not just CA we're losing. That's what I am trying to tell.

That is where you are wrong. Not sure if you have lived in other pro gun states such as SC, TX, UT, AZ, etc....in SC gun ownership is in the state Constitution. Sure we have an occassional idiotic mayor that mentions gun control sometimes....but they usually are crushed quickly. In SC we have a very active PRO gun faction that has increased right to carry in many places, reciprocity with other states, as well as Class 3 weapon ownership. SC USED to prohibit class 3 weapons....no more....now it is all legal. We used to NOT have conceal carry.....no more.....Many states are expanding gun rights these days.

CA is one of the very few states where conceal carry is difficult if not impossible for the average citizen to obtain the permit. That is one of the key indicators right there. CHP and CA DOJ have been anti gun for citizens ever since I can recall when I was there.

Just look at all the states that have ADDED conceal carry or Class 3 weapons ownership. Kansas, Ohio, Michigan, etc...the list is growing...and growing even recently...EXCEPT in California. EVEN Washington DC has relaxed their gun laws (through the Heller decision)

People in CA are oblivious to what is going on in the rest of the country.....since many are isolated in their suburban bubble of contentment there.

Test Pilot -

Ok, so lets flip it.

WTF do you want the rest of us to do for CA gun owners?

Keep in mind we can't vote in CA, we aren't going to MOVE to CA, and we have to spend time ensuring the rights in our own states expand...

So lets have it. What do CA gun-owners need non-CA residents to do for you.

-Rhino

quote:

Originally posted by TestPilot:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Very interesting on both sides.

The only thing I would like to address is Testpilots comments on "winning the people" back. Old friend, I say with the most sincerity it is now a lost cause. Most of the "people" don't care to be won. They are content in the suburban bubble, and unless they begin to tax cable TV, or soda to support gun control, they could care less. The little education they get day to day is a quick blurb on the TV or radio as they go about their day to day life doing what makes them happy. And guess whose side they hear there?

But, average people in the "free states" are not that far off from that description either. If we just let go, then it's not just CA we're losing. That's what I am trying to tell.

TestPilot, sorry but you are wrong. In Georgia we have much much much better laws than in California, but we still have a few issues and so we have a group called GerogiaCarry (GCO) and we spend a lot of time fighting for the rights of gun owners. GCO doesn't wait until a bill is introduced and then just fight it, GCO is actively fighting existing laws. We have been succesful in several areas already and are not done yet.

So even though the environment in Georgia is much better than California, we are still fighting to make them even better. We are not comfortable and not letting the politicians strike first. And I am yet to be convinced that just because something happens in California it is coming soon to my state. Sorry but California doesn't quite lead the country like some Californians want to believe. California has been anti-gun for a long time and in the past 3 years while it gets worse there it is getting even better here.

And as I see, what other states are doing for California Gun rights is LEADING BY EXAMPLE. Repealing and fighting existing gun laws, making things better. VCDL is one example here in VA, much like the GCO mentioned above.

I get the feeling CA gun owners are too timid and content to sit and bitch about it. Too enamored with the CA lifestyle and how CA is such a great state (besides gun laws). Gimmie a break...

Newsflash - CA is a joke to the rest of the country. Too liberal, too self-indulgent, undertaxed, overpaid, and run by a bunch of incompetent, corrupt politicians. Just because CA bans guns or ammo doesn't mean the rest of us are going to roll over like CA has.

I mean when the "Big One" (in terms of Earthquake) hits CA and it falls into the sea, it's not like the USA is going to cease to exist...

How would we ever survive with the liberal epicenter???

We'd manage...

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums...20601935/m/348104471

Yet more actions of the loons running your state. If you wonder why most of us hate California this is a great example. You think we don't support California because of the gun laws? It aint just that guys. The reason I don't care about California is because the government is absolutely crazy and your citizens continue to let it happen.

^^^^

And they all (CA Residents) wonder why we don't even consider the state part of the United States...

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Test Pilot -

Ok, so lets flip it.

WTF do you want the rest of us to do for CA gun owners?

Keep in mind we can't vote in CA, we aren't going to MOVE to CA, and we have to spend time ensuring the rights in our own states expand...

So lets have it. What do CA gun-owners need non-CA residents to do for you.

-Rhino

I never demanded anything specific to be done. Since you stated, "I support CA residents in their fight for gun rights,..." whatever it is that you were doing, even just being on our side in heart would be helpful I guess.

The point of my post was not to demand a specific action, but for people to acknowledge a few points. That would be: (And, not particularly directed to RHINOWSO)

-I don't care if you hate CA. But, antagonizing CA residents on your side over what we as minority individuals have no control over is really not helpful.

-No, I don't care for the weather here. I don't own suburban house, and nor do I regularly enjoy going to Californian beach. No, I have not lived here all my life, and nor is it the reason why I'm not leaving. There are many critical needs in my life and some things I've established here and some things I'm trying to establish would be at too much of a risk if I move out of here.

-Yes. California is anti gun. That's not the point of debate. I'm trying to ask the question of why is it anti gun? How it because to be so? And, can it be stopped or reversed? And, I was also trying to point out that why and how it became anti gun is not limited to CA.