SIGforum.com Main Page Gun Control Discussion hypothetically speaking...does a gunsmith have to report legally unregistered firearms?
Main Page Gun Control Discussion hypothetically speaking...does a gunsmith have to report legally unregistered firearms?|
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Member |
I have a hypothetical question. let's assume that a person lawfully has a gun that is old enough that it is unkwon to the BATFE, because it is old enough to date back to the REAL USA, before we had all these unconstitutional current laws.
if such a hypothetical person were to take such a hypothetical firearm to a gunsmith for service, would the gunsmith be obligated to report it or to keep a record of it at all? |
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I believe a gunsmith must have a FFL and they must log any gun into their books.
Serial numbers were not needed on rifles until the GCA of '68. Not sure about shotgun and handguns. The books are only looked at during audits or if the FFL holder is in serious trouble or other investigations. Now, if the gun is a NFA device and the owner doesn't have paperwork, then I think the gunsmith would contact ATF. State laws, in certain states, may require something different. |
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Member |
Mike is correct on all counts.
In addition, if it appears the SN was defaced or removed, or the gun does not meet the NFA requirements (e.g., it is a shotgun with a 3" barrel) and the owner did not demonstrate that it is legally owned (i.e., by showing the tax stamp) the gunsmith in obligated to report it to BATFE. Returning the gun to its owner is also recorded, but a BRady check is not required (unless by state law). FFL Holder NRA Instructor Certified SIG Armorer Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. Miyamoto Musashi, 1645 |
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BJEC1248, you do realize that there are many many guns out there that were brought back after WWI & WWII and maybe Korea that are not documented along with all the guns that were sold legally through the mail before the GCA of '68 was enacted. As long as the gun is not a NFA device, and not reported stolen and owned legally in your state, the 'smith will work on it and return it to you.
In a state like NY, where you must have a pistol permit to own a handgun and any handgun you own must be on that permit, yes, you could get in trouble if you try to get an unregistered handgun repaired. Not from ATF, but the state. |
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yes, I am well aware. that's why--hypothetically--I was curious to know whether a gunsmith would have an obligation to report the existence of such a firearm. thanks for the advice, everyone! |
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Member |
Add to it that if you go back far enough in time, the guns become antiques and are not even classed as firearms.
FFL Holder NRA Instructor Certified SIG Armorer Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. Miyamoto Musashi, 1645 |
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Member |
I think that most gunsmiths would value their FFL license more than any small profit they might make from having an illegal weapon on the premises.
Given the history of BATFE, with repeated incidents of overt harassment of dealers and license revocations for relatively minor paperwork discrepancies, I think most license holders would go out of their way to report any potentially unlawful situation. |
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Member |
in the hypothetical scenario, the weapon is totally legal; the question is whether the smith would be required to register its existence. looks like the answer is "yes." thanks for all the replies!
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What does "legally unregistered" mean?
If you take a Class 3 or DD or AOW in for work and the smith doesn't ask for copies of the paperwork to hold onto while it's in his possession, he or she is nuts. And if you don't have paperwork, and they still take possession of the gun, they are nuts. And there may be circumstances in which working on it could put them in the position of being a de facto "manufacturer". If the gun is "totally legal" the smith has nothing to register. If it isn't, he ought not accept it, unless he has a fondness for rough sodomy and institutional food. |
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posting without pants |
Where do you have to register a gun? Even here in IL while we have to have a FOID card there is no registry of guns. All the government knows is that i have a card and am capable of buying a gun, not how many or what i do own. A gunsmith would know only if i possessed a valid FOID card if i had him/her work on a gun, nothing about the gun itself. I suppose they could run the serial number with local PD to see if the gun was missing or stolen but that's it. Kevin Karma? Karma is just justice without the satisfaction. |
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Kevin, A handgun must be registered in MI. Not long ago, we had a sanitized version of registration called a "safety inspection". The gun, new or used, had to be taken in to the local PD where the make, model, serial number, caliber, etc. were all registered. The owner was given a small green card with all of the 'pertinent' information on it to do with as he/she saw fit. Now, we simply drop off two RI-060 forms within 10 days of acquiring the gun. Same information and, same effect, but there's no wait and no need to take the gun in with you. (The owner must hold onto his/her copy of the RI-060 for 30 days. After that, it can go into the trash.) ~Tom The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good. - George Washington |
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posting without pants |
Interesting. What happens when you sell, or get rid of for some other reason, that gun? I didn't know that about MI. Kevin Karma? Karma is just justice without the satisfaction. |
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Kevin, in MD any modern handgun, including C&R handguns, and certain evil black rifles sold in state must have both a 4473 and state paperwork done. The state paperwork gets sent to the State Police and they decide if the gun can be transferred. (Only a prohibited person would be disapproved.) Technically the state has a list of every one of these firearms. When I lived in NY, you had to have a pistol permit to own/possess a handgun. Each handgun was logged on your permit and the county had the info as well. Each county administered the program for the state. Both could be considered registration. |
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In addition to the NFA issues that all FFL's have to deal with, different states have specific laws that complicate this issue. As Mike pointed out, NY has 100% handgun registration, but no long gun registration (NYC excluded). You can't drop off a pistol at a gunsmith without showing you license.
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I Wanna Missile |
Where do you register your guns? Here in CO the govt, state or fed, has no idea how many I own or what their SNs are.
Here in CO that state paperwork must be destroyed once the transfer is complete. The state is not allowed to maintain a database of firearms transfers. The only chance to track a particular firearm is to go around to every gun shop and look at every 4473 to see if the gun they want is on one of them. Labor intensive process. "I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr. |
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The same RI-060 form is used for sales, gifts or inheritances. Same drill but you retain one copy of the RI-060 while the acquiring party keeps a copy and turns the remaining two copies into the local PD. Forgot to mention that the two copies may also be mailed directly to the State Police. Not sure I'd care to risk having them get lost in the mail but it is an option. ~Tom The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good. - George Washington |
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SIGforum.com Main Page Gun Control Discussion hypothetically speaking...does a gunsmith have to report legally unregistered firearms?
Main Page Gun Control Discussion hypothetically speaking...does a gunsmith have to report legally unregistered firearms?© SIGforum 2009