quote:

Originally posted by occupant:
Well the best way to get the ATF to visit you is to buy a bunch of M-2, M-16 or other full auto conversion parts. That is what David Koresh did.

Another way to get a visit is to fit into the Project Gunner firearms trafficer mold. The dealer will usually tell ATF about your transactions. The NICS check doesn't list the SN, just type of firearm i.e pistol, rifle shotgun.

Some of Project Gunrunner indicators are:

Buy a large number of the same model firearm

Choose military style rifles .223 or 7.62x39
or large frame 9mm, 38 super, .45 or 5.7mm pistols.

Structure purchases to avoid ATF reporting requirements.

Don' t haggle about price

Pay in cash

Have little or no knowledge with the firearm you are purchasing

Again, the FFL dealer has to report you to the ATF.

Remember the ATF really has no way to track firearms and is understaffed.

So everytime I buy an assault rifle, pay in cash, don't haggle about the price I am turned in to the ATF?

BS

Couple of years ago the ATF came knocking on my dad's door.

This is Kommiefornia and all. He had bought a bunch of AK-47's and AR-15 all at once cash for re-sale down the road. Can't do that now with all the new laws here.

He already owned about 2 dozen assault riffles and about 3 dozen handguns, plus a few hunting riffles and a bunch of other crap.

All they did was question him asked for his paper work etc, and they were on their way.

Must of thought he was going to start a insurrection or something.

He ended up watching the number of guns he bought at one time. To avoid this happening again.

Never really found out why they flagged him, but hey if it happens it happens. He had nothing to hide and wasn't a felon. Hell he was a vietnam vet too.

quote:

Originally posted by armalite:

quote:

Originally posted by occupant:
Well the best way to get the ATF to visit you is to buy a bunch of M-2, M-16 or other full auto conversion parts. That is what David Koresh did.

Another way to get a visit is to fit into the Project Gunner firearms trafficer mold. The dealer will usually tell ATF about your transactions. The NICS check doesn't list the SN, just type of firearm i.e pistol, rifle shotgun.

Some of Project Gunrunner indicators are:

Buy a large number of the same model firearm

Choose military style rifles .223 or 7.62x39
or large frame 9mm, 38 super, .45 or 5.7mm pistols.

Structure purchases to avoid ATF reporting requirements.

Don' t haggle about price

Pay in cash

Have little or no knowledge with the firearm you are purchasing

Again, the FFL dealer has to report you to the ATF.

Remember the ATF really has no way to track firearms and is understaffed.

So everytime I buy an assault rifle, pay in cash, don't haggle about the price I am turned in to the ATF?

BS

You'll notice that he said "rifles". If you go in and purchase an AR and an AK for example at the same time, you're not going to have problems. Even if you were to buy a couple lower receivers at the same time, not likely to have a problem. But let's face it, these guns aren't cheap, so when you buy 4 or 5 of them at once, don't even inquire about a quantity discount and then pay cash (who carries several thousand dollars cash anymore anyway), then that is certainly out of the ordinary. Even if you do get a visit from an ATF Agent, without a warrant you aren't even required to let them in your house, you certainly don't have to talk to them and as long as you're buying them for collecting purposes then you haven't broken any laws and don' have anything to worry about. It's not really any different then when a person drives through a high crime area multiple times in their car, they may get stopped by a police officer to see what's going on because their activity is not normal. What I find interesting is that so many people here on this board are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration, as am I. Yet when you have a government agency that is taking steps to try to curtail that activity people get all upset about them asking questions of people who are conducting suspicious activities. You see, Mexican nationals are getting arms from the United States, it's a huge problem, as the citizens of that hell hole don't have the freedoms that we do and can't acquire firearms legally themselves. So, when the coyotes and drug smugglers wish to provide armed protection for their illegal activites they need to acquire their arms from someplace else, that place is overwhelmingly the US. Project Gunrunner is designed to protect the Border Patrol Agents, National Guard Members, Minutemen and other concerned citizens on the border from armed Mexican nationals by cutting off the supply of weapons to the Mexican nationals.

quote:

you certainly don't have to talk to them

This is good advice - lying to a federal agent (even inadvertently) is a crime. Better not to say anything at all.

OK I was somewhat off base. But if you will read the Gunrunner explaination, they are looking for people who intend to smuggle the rifles main to Mexico.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

quote:

Originally posted by armalite:

quote:

Originally posted by occupant:
Well the best way to get the ATF to visit you is to buy a bunch of M-2, M-16 or other full auto conversion parts. That is what David Koresh did.

Another way to get a visit is to fit into the Project Gunner firearms trafficer mold. The dealer will usually tell ATF about your transactions. The NICS check doesn't list the SN, just type of firearm i.e pistol, rifle shotgun.

Some of Project Gunrunner indicators are:

Buy a large number of the same model firearm

Choose military style rifles .223 or 7.62x39
or large frame 9mm, 38 super, .45 or 5.7mm pistols.

Structure purchases to avoid ATF reporting requirements.

Don' t haggle about price

Pay in cash

Have little or no knowledge with the firearm you are purchasing

Again, the FFL dealer has to report you to the ATF.

Remember the ATF really has no way to track firearms and is understaffed.

So everytime I buy an assault rifle, pay in cash, don't haggle about the price I am turned in to the ATF?

BS

You'll notice that he said "rifles". If you go in and purchase an AR and an AK for example at the same time, you're not going to have problems. Even if you were to buy a couple lower receivers at the same time, not likely to have a problem. But let's face it, these guns aren't cheap, so when you buy 4 or 5 of them at once, don't even inquire about a quantity discount and then pay cash (who carries several thousand dollars cash anymore anyway), then that is certainly out of the ordinary. Even if you do get a visit from an ATF Agent, without a warrant you aren't even required to let them in your house, you certainly don't have to talk to them and as long as you're buying them for collecting purposes then you haven't broken any laws and don' have anything to worry about. It's not really any different then when a person drives through a high crime area multiple times in their car, they may get stopped by a police officer to see what's going on because their activity is not normal. What I find interesting is that so many people here on this board are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration, as am I. Yet when you have a government agency that is taking steps to try to curtail that activity people get all upset about them asking questions of people who are conducting suspicious activities. You see, Mexican nationals are getting arms from the United States, it's a huge problem, as the citizens of that hell hole don't have the freedoms that we do and can't acquire firearms legally themselves. So, when the coyotes and drug smugglers wish to provide armed protection for their illegal activites they need to acquire their arms from someplace else, that place is overwhelmingly the US. Project Gunrunner is designed to protect the Border Patrol Agents, National Guard Members, Minutemen and other concerned citizens on the border from armed Mexican nationals by cutting off the supply of weapons to the Mexican nationals.

Well, to all of you guys who don't think buying a large number of guns won't get you a visit from the ATF, you're wrong. In 2007, I purchased about 30 handguns, mostly high end stuff like SIGS and HK's. I also sold about 25% of those guns I purchased because I didn't like them or changed direction.

I bought all of the guns over the Internet and accepted tranfer through the same FFL. During a routine audit of his FFL records, the ATF auditor, who is not a law enforcement agent, recorded data on customer who purchased quite a few guns during the year. They asked my FFL about me and two other customers of his that are frequent purchasers. My FFL explained to him that I am a collector and didn't think anything illegal was going on. After they left, he gave me a call and let me know they asked.

About three weeks later, my FFL got a visit from an ATF Agent who questioned him about me and the two other customers I mentioned. A week later, I had the same ATF agent knock on my door at my home. I was not home and he spoke briefly with my wife, gave her his card and asked me to call him. After doing a little research on the situation, I decided I had done nothing wrong so I'd be upfront with him and answer his questions. I called him and he was pretty cool. He asked what kinds of guns I buy, how many of them I sold and how I handled the sale. He said he didn't expect that I was doing anything wrong as guys that do usually by a lot of cheap guns, not SIGS, but his boss asked him to check on it. He never did stop by as my phone call satified his curiosity. That was the end of it and I have purchased more than a dozen guns this year, sometime more than one during the same week, and I have heard nothing else.

Now, my FFL hadn't been audited for 10 years and the fact that this even was an issue was a fluke of sorts because it seems like the audit is what triggered the inquiry, not the form the FFL send in when a customer buys more than one gun at a time. But then again, maybe the number of multiple purchase forms triggered the audit. In the end, he came out totally clean on the audit too.

If the Agent had asked to come into my residence and view my collection, I would have asked for a warrant. Not because I have anything to hide, but because of the principle and the invasion of privacy. Thankfully, it didn't go that far. So, the moral of the story is, if the ATF does call, don't freak out if you're doing nothing wrong.

So long as your not selling them out of the trunk of your car!! you should be fine

I wouldn't worry, but to answer your question, they can see how many guns and what type you have purchased if transferred through an FFL dealer. I never had a visit, but I had a phone call. He told me exactly how many guns I had bought since a certain date.

quote:

Originally posted by dfens:
He had bought a bunch of AK-47's and AR-15 all at once cash for re-sale down the road.

So he intentionally bought the rifles to resell, and is not a FFL? If that's the case, it sounds like he got lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by sendec:

quote:

Originally posted by dfens:
He had bought a bunch of AK-47's and AR-15 all at once cash for re-sale down the road.

So he intentionally bought the rifles to resell, and is not a FFL? If that's the case, it sounds like he got lucky.

If you intentionally purchase firearms with the intent of selling them at a profit, that is the very definition of an FFL. I'd be careful with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Thunderjohn:
I wouldn't worry, but to answer your question, they can see how many guns and what type you have purchased if transferred through an FFL dealer. I never had a visit, but I had a phone call. He told me exactly how many guns I had bought since a certain date.

Can you elaborate on this? This completely goes against every bit of training that I have received as a law enforcement officer on how ATF traces a firearm, including training from ATF's tracing center. ATF may be able to find every firearm transaction that you have made at a particular dealer, but they certainly could not find every firearm that you've purchased from every FFL in the US unless every one of them turned up in a crime. Please be careful with what you post as fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

quote:

Originally posted by Thunderjohn:
I wouldn't worry, but to answer your question, they can see how many guns and what type you have purchased if transferred through an FFL dealer. I never had a visit, but I had a phone call. He told me exactly how many guns I had bought since a certain date.

Can you elaborate on this? This completely goes against every bit of training that I have received as a law enforcement officer on how ATF traces a firearm, including training from ATF's tracing center. ATF may be able to find every firearm transaction that you have made at a particular dealer, but they certainly could not find every firearm that you've purchased from every FFL in the US unless every one of them turned up in a crime. Please be careful with what you post as fact.

My guess, he means to say, "every gun he purchased from a single FFL" but I'll let him speak of that.

quote:

He was a nice guy....just doing his job.

Everyone who is "nice" and "doing their job" will still come and take your guns one day if ordered.

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:

quote:

Originally posted by Quadrono:

quote:

Originally posted by sendec:
The only guys I hear of being "visited" by the ATF are hoods, drug runners and career criminals.

Tell that to the Branch Davidians, they were none of the above.

I'm not standing up for the Brach Davidians, but, you can tell that to Blackwater, mom and pop gun shops, and countless individual holders of FFLs that the ATF threatens on a daily basis to push local feild office anti gun agenda's.

Some people only hear what they want to hear. Hundreds of Americans have been visited by the ATF just because they bought guns at a gun show: http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/07/despite-arrests.html And every dealer I've known gets vists regularly. Some just to make sure everything is honkey-dory, some clearly designed to harrass.

I just finished reading an excelent book called "Under and Alone," about an ATF agent who infiltrated an outlaw motorcycle gang over the course of several years. I found it interesting that the author commented several times that while he was regularly risking his life to take down this widespread and incredibly violent criminal organization, his ATF superiors would have prefered that he be working on "one man, one gun" cases.

I don't doubt that the majority of ATF agents have good intentions and are just doing a tough job. But they unfortunately wind up enforcing a lot of laws that were intended for no other purpose than as a trap for the unwary.