quote:

Originally posted by hudr:

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:

quote:

Originally posted by sig228-gsr:
The ATF will not show up just for owning guns, no matter what the number is. But if you sell a gun or guns and they end up used in a crime they might show up. In the past the ATF might visit someone if they bought several guns at once. Multiple gun purchases were rare years ago, today it's so common the ATF would have to double their number of agents.

More than one handgun purchased within 5 business days does require a dealer to submit a Multiple Purchase form to the BATF.

Is that a Fed thing or a State thing?
I don't remember any extra paperwork when I bought all my CAS guns at one time. Of course, it may be like a bank, there is some paperwork done that they may or may not have to tell you about.

It is a Federal thing. There is a form that the dealer submits to the ATF. The purchaser never sees it. It is only if the same person purchases more than one handgun from the same dealer in a 5 business day period.

quote:

Originally posted by dcolson:
ok...thanks guys.......by your definition I dont have "a lot" of guns.......somewhere around 25 I would guess.

Only 25 firearms?
Heck, just on this forum alone there are hundreds of guys that have owned double and triple that number and they haven't even raised an eyebrow at the ATF.

I would say that 25 guns is about an average size collection, for a gun enthusiast.

quote:

Originally posted by American Pit Bull:

quote:

Originally posted by dcolson:
ok...thanks guys.......by your definition I dont have "a lot" of guns.......somewhere around 25 I would guess.

Only 25 firearms?
Heck, just on this forum alone there are hundreds of guys that have owned double and triple that number and they haven't even raised an eyebrow at the ATF.

I would say that 25 guns is about an average size collection, for a gun enthusiast.

...maybe even on the small side.

If you order 65 stripped lowers, I have it on pretty good authority that might get a visit.

The concern being that you are going to start unlicenced manufacturing.

If you buy 65 complete firearms in one transfer, you might get a visit the concern being distribution.

If you buy one a month for 20 years, I don't think anyone would much care.

Without a court order, all they can do is talk to you anyway. So long as your not doing anything illegal you have nothing to worry about even if they do visit (might wanna lock up your dog though ).

quote:

Originally posted by Quadrono:

quote:

Originally posted by sendec:
The only guys I hear of being "visited" by the ATF are hoods, drug runners and career criminals.

Tell that to the Branch Davidians, they were none of the above.

I'm not standing up for the Brach Davidians, but, you can tell that to Blackwater, mom and pop gun shops, and countless individual holders of FFLs that the ATF threatens on a daily basis to push local feild office anti gun agenda's.

I've only had one request from ATF about a gun, and that followed them recovering a weapon from a felon. The gun they recovered was last sold to someone in my jurisdiction and they wanted to know if the original owner had reported it stolen at any time.

The answer was 'no' and neither I nor the origianl owner ever heard anything more about it.

As for ATF enforcing the regs on assorted Gun dealers, whether Mom & Pop shops, Blackwater, or other FFLs, isn't that what they're supposed to do? Of course, I have no idea whether that's a part of some 'anti-gun' policy or not but I'm sure someone better informed than I about the internal politics of the ATF will chime in with irrefutable evidence of their secret agenda pretty soon.

I wish I could afford enough guns to trigger a visit from ATF

quote:

As for ATF enforcing the regs on assorted Gun dealers, whether Mom & Pop shops, Blackwater, or other FFLs, isn't that what they're supposed to do? Of course, I have no idea whether that's a part of some 'anti-gun' policy or not but I'm sure someone better informed than I about the internal politics of the ATF will chime in with irrefutable evidence of their secret agenda pretty soon.

I went to a wine/chocolate/cheeze/meat tasting with my wife (her law firm event) and one of the lady attorney's just joined the firm. In her prior life she worked as an assistant/associate general cousel for the ATF.

We discussed the ins and outs of the ATF and I couldn't help but ask her about the various instances over the years that I could recall.

Her take on it was pretty clear. Although ATF headquarters is 110% pro gun, some of the field offices have their own agenda and that causes complications between some of the larger field offices and HQ's.

She spent alot of her time conducting investigations (internal) due to inconsistent application of various rulings/rules/procedures throught the country.

Every time a NICS is done there exists a possibility that Data is being retained,
(Legally or Not ) so don't assume your guns
are an undiscovered secret.

quote:

Her take on it was pretty clear. Although ATF headquarters is 110% pro gun, some of the field offices have their own agenda and that causes complications between some of the larger field offices and HQ's.

Interesting. I imagine that a lot of smaller field offices, much as in the commercial world, have their direction and emphasis shaped by the person(s) in charge. I can see how a SAC of a field office in say, Detroit, might have a different outlook to one in Billings (MT).

Thanks.

Ask yourself this question. How will the ATF know how many guns you have if they do not visit the stores where you bought them?

quote:

Originally posted by joshrunkle35:
They cannot ask to see a weapon without a court order. They can ask to see class III weapons. They cannot come into your house without a warrant, but they can ask to see class III stuff, which you can bring to the door for them. They need a warrant to see any other guns. Any other government agency needs a warrant for class III or regular guns.

Unless you are a dealer they can not request to see the weapon itself. They can request to see your Forms, but no more.

quote:

Originally posted by dcolson:
ok...thanks guys.......by your definition I dont have "a lot" of guns.......somewhere around 25 I would guess.

Dont wrorry about 25, I've got a buddy that has more 9mm pistols than that. I think the guy buys about 5 guns a month for as long as I've known him.

quote:

Originally posted by thunder:
In a word NO,

If the BATFE were to come to your door and request to see any firearms that you may or may not own, ask to see their warrant, if they don't have one wish them a good day.

The Second Amendment states "The RIGHT of the people to KEEP and BEAR (ARMS) shall not be INFRINGED, (ARMS) would seem to suggest as many as you (one of the people) damn well want/need.

_____________________________________________________________________


Well, what's your God given right and what daz STATE permits are two different things.



.

quote:

Originally posted by Quadrono:

quote:

Originally posted by sendec:
The only guys I hear of being "visited" by the ATF are hoods, drug runners and career criminals.

Tell that to the Branch Davidians, they were none of the above.

No, they sure weren't, they were religious fanatics who were willing to resort to violence and had amassed a collection of illegal machine guns and hand grenades as well as other illegal weapons. Vernon Howell was a charismatic leader, but was also a bit of a bully. He had been in a shootout with the previous leader of the Branch Davidians where nobody was hurt so the judge presiding over the case basically threw it out. When Vernon Howell rose to power as David Koresh, the neighbors were afraid and went to local LE for a resolution, who then went to ATF for help.

The problem with the whole incident was that Howell forced the hand of LE. His profecies were not coming true and some of his followers were starting to lose faith. One of the underlying profecies of the Branch Davidians was that they must die at the hands of Law Enforcement in order to become martyrs and reach Heaven. Howell was willing to commit violent acts against innocents in order to trigger a LE response rather than lose his followers due to the lack of his profecies coming true. The amount of weaponry that they amassed ultimately forced the hands of LE in dealing with the group and unfortunately led to a tragic ending. Ultimately though I take offense when people try to portray the Branch Davidians as some totally innocent victims though. Granted there may have been a number of innocent women and children, but I would group a lot of the Branch Davidians in the same group that I would put Islamo-fascist extremists. Comparing the Branch Davidians to a typical law abiding gun owner is absurd in my opinion and detracts from the intent of the original poster in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by armalite:

Not all of their weapons were illegally converted.

The leader was David Koresh, not Veron Howell.

the whole mess was started by the ATF wanting to make a show so they could called the good boys. They had to make a show and screwed it up royally! They could have picked up Koresh any day of the week in town.

What the Davidians were doing was not right. But the ATF and FBI had no business acting they way they did. Innocent people died because of their blunder.

Vernon Howell was Koresh's real name. He was not born David Koresh, but changed it after taking over as leader of the Davidians. I choose not to refer to Howell as Koresh as I don't wish to provide any reinforcement of his beliefs that he was anything other than a phony, law breaker.

I never said that ALL of the machine guns, silencers, etc. were illegal. A lot of them were however, as were all the hand grenades.

As for why Howell was not arrested away from the compound, it still would not have relieved ATF from the obligation of searching the compound pursuant to the court ordered search warrant. There were perfectly valid, tactically sound reasons for why they chose to serve the warrant in the fashion that they chose to, and there were very good reasons why they continued on with the operation despite the fact that the secrecy of their plan had been compromised, like I said Howell forced their hand. I will not debate the tactics, etc. utilized by ATF during the warrant service, as I believe it will only serve to derail this thread from the intent of the original poster. I also don't believe that I will change peoples mind on the subject and prefer not to beat my head against a wall trying. The point of my response was simply to refute the apparent claim that the Branch Davidians were not actively engaged in violations against the United States.

quote:

Originally posted by joshrunkle35:
They can ask to see class III weapons. They cannot come into your house without a warrant, but they can ask to see class III stuff, which you can bring to the door for them.

I think you mean title II weapons. Weapons fall under title II and dealers (who are class III) are, well, class III dealers. No, they (ATF) cannot walk up to your door and ask to see your title II weapons. Many people are confused by this becasue the only people who are obligated to show the books/present weapons are SOT/FFL's who possess title II weapons on the premisis on file.

If a Fed walked up to my door and asked to see my title II weapons, I'd be very polite, but decline the examination. It's not that I have anything to hide, but it is within my right to say no.

Don't just listen to gun range talk, actually read the laws that govern title II weapons. So many people, in conversation, tell me that is the main reason they don't own title II weapons. They are "scared to death" of the FED walking up and knocking on their door and searching without a warrant. They can't do that unless you are an FFL/SOT and that is the address on record.

Well the best way to get the ATF to visit you is to buy a bunch of M-2, M-16 or other full auto conversion parts. That is what David Koresh did.

Another way to get a visit is to fit into the Project Gunner firearms trafficer mold. The dealer will usually tell ATF about your transactions. The NICS check doesn't list the SN, just type of firearm i.e pistol, rifle shotgun.

Some of Project Gunrunner indicators are:

Buy a large number of the same model firearm

Choose military style rifles .223 or 7.62x39
or large frame 9mm, 38 super, .45 or 5.7mm pistols.

Structure purchases to avoid ATF reporting requirements.

Don' t haggle about price

Pay in cash

Have little or no knowledge with the firearm you are purchasing

Again, the FFL dealer has to report you to the ATF.

Remember the ATF really has no way to track firearms and is understaffed.

quote:

Originally posted by occupant:
Don' t haggle about price

I never haggle about the price of anything. I'll either pay what they're asking or I won't.

Cheg would you care to weigh in on the use of de-cockers?

(Sorry for the drift!)