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Picture of chansen92
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MWC:
Since ISIS is just as likely to target police, it seems this directive is telling the police to run and hide too.
NO, the Police carry firearms in the bad parts of town.
 
Posts: 1521 | Location: owosso,Mi. USA | Registered: August 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chansen92:
quote:
Originally posted by MWC:
Since ISIS is just as likely to target police, it seems this directive is telling the police to run and hide too.
NO, the Police carry firearms in the bad parts of town.


Not so, Sir, unless you count the major airports and train stations in London, Birmingham and Manchester as 'bad parts of town'.

It doesn't mean that firearms are not available when needed. Firearms teams are part and parcel of every police force in the entire UK, and talking about which, ALL police officers in Northern Ireland - the PSNI - are routinely armed, and have been since 1922.

tac
 
Posts: 8073 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I suspect it's WAY too late to change the culture of those folks in the UK, but many here see this as a chilling example of what a LOT of folks in this country would want us to do, so we tend to react (and, yes, perhaps overreact) accordingly.

My own DW was recently shown (as part of her government job) a video with the mantra "run, hide, fight" variety. Pretty funny, since she carries a pistol and I tried to emphasize the essential differences.

It's subtle, but in general I do NOT want her to "stand her ground". But I also don't want her to turn and run when doing so will expose her to more risk. I'm of the "Get a good ready, draw your weapon if the threat makes it necessary, duck to reasonable cover if possible, evaluate the situation, decide if moving to another location further away from the trouble or in a better tactical position is better, and then discharge said weapon to end the threat". Trying to boil down any way to respond to danger to two or three words is impossible and silly (although the old "Run AWAY!" from Monty Python always makes me laugh).

Governments in general like to have catchy phrases and easy solutions to problems that are far more complicated and impossible to solve ("Duck and Cover" really doesn't solve the threat of nuclear war, as those of us who grew up in the 50's were told otherwise). But trying to get people to run first, in our particular nation that has a history of fighting the Bad Guys, is a disservice to everyone.


Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
 
Posts: 370 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: July 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kelleytoons:
I suspect it's WAY too late to change the culture of those folks in the UK, but many here see this as a chilling example of what a LOT of folks in this country would want us to do, so we tend to react (and, yes, perhaps overreact) accordingly.


There is NO gun culture in the UK, nor has there ever been.

When polled a few years back the national police forces voted 85%/15% against being routinely armed.

Successive governments have taken away - subsumed - the 17th C Bill of Rights that gave every man the right to have a firearm for his or her own protection or to protect his or her family, or household. It's all still there, but it needs some deep digging to locate it under the heap of successive over-writes.

tac
 
Posts: 8073 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
the 17th C Bill of Rights that gave every man the right to have a firearm for his or her own protection or to protect his or her family, or household.


I always appreciate your insightful comments about these issues, tac.

Do you know of a link to a source with that original language or statement you reference?




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36007 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 3/4Flap
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
the 17th C Bill of Rights that gave every man the right to have a firearm for his or her own protection or to protect his or her family, or household.


I always appreciate your insightful comments about these issues, tac.

Do you know of a link to a source with that original language or statement you reference?


Oddly enough, Sigfreund, you can start with US v Miller 1939 and work up from there.

For a sketch,

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/307/174

Once done with that, try this until Tac weighs in;

http://www.guncite.com/journals/senrpt/senhardy.html

Tac can weigh in later with more, for sure.

PS: US v Miller is a pregnant and undelivered SCOTUS decision. There is much in there that deserves another look. Like...the only weapons covered under 2A are MILITARY WEAPONS, i.e. machineguns, assault rifles, mortars, antitank weapons and maybe nukes...


**********************
"For certainly no legislation can be supposed more wholesome and necessary in the founding of a free, self-governing commonwealth, fit to take rank as one of the coordinate States of the Union, than that which seeks to establish it on the basis of the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony"; United States Supreme Court Ruling, Murphy v. Ramsey 1885.
The hardest trail leads to the highest peak.
"A liberal is a person whose immediate interests are not at stake."
 
Posts: 4537 | Location: Idaho, USA | Registered: May 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Governments in general like to have catchy phrases and easy solutions to problems that are far more complicated and impossible to solve ("Duck and Cover" really doesn't solve the threat of nuclear war, as those of us who grew up in the 50's were told otherwise.


Indeed. Those of us who knew better during the Cold War period of the '50's used a more useful phrase: "Duck, Cover and kiss your ass goodbye".


*******
"Good Girls go to Heaven. Bad Girls go everywhere". - Mae West.
 
Posts: 4531 | Location: Arizona | Registered: August 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SecurityGeek
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"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you was?"

- Satchel Paige
 
Posts: 92 | Location: Little Elm, Texas | Registered: April 09, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
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Tac, the advice your government is sad and disheartening, but since your populace is pretty much unarmed, running is about the only option. What makes me sad is I remember all the "Battle of Britain' nostalgia when I was stationed there a few years ago. To go from a nation that stood up to the Nazis to now allowing a bunch of unwashed Arabs push their anti-British agendas unchallenged, even when they are using violence.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24084 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ragnar
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Now, it's quite simple to deal with a banana fiend. First, you force him to drop the banana. Then, you eat the banana, thus disarming him. You have now rendered him helpless!



Live every day as if it is your last, for one day you’re sure to be right
 
Posts: 670 | Location: Historic Southpark, Dayton Ohio | Registered: October 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by IrishWind:
Tac, the advice your government is sad and disheartening, but since your populace is [snip] unarmed, running is about the only option.


Fixed it for ya.

But, just tell me one thing, and then I'll shut up and quit this topic.

What do unarmed Americans do in circumstances where the BGs have the guns, and they do not? A few examples in the last couple of years come to mind, but I'm sure you know the ones I mean...

What do unarmed folks ANYWHERE do when the shooting starts, and they are unarmed?

Why is the UK coming in for so much bad-mouthing from you guys, when numerous states of the Union advise their citizens to run and hide when threatened?

tac
 
Posts: 8073 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not picking on you at all - I WANT Americans to be armed, at least most of them (some can't and never will). The things you allude to are sad reminders of when there aren't any armed citizens about to protect the unarmed ones.

My wife's workplace showed a video where "Run, hide, fight" was the mantra. I said to her -- "No, you are armed. Your motto should be: Run if that doesn't expose you or your fellows to more danger, then stand your ground and fight. Hide when you run out of ammo."

I suspect folks here were just reacting to the fact that you have no other options, which is sad.


Mike "ex-genius" Kelley
 
Posts: 370 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: July 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 3/4Flap
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
quote:
Originally posted by IrishWind:
Tac, the advice your government is sad and disheartening, but since your populace is [snip] unarmed, running is about the only option.


Fixed it for ya.

But, just tell me one thing, and then I'll shut up and quit this topic.

What do unarmed Americans do in circumstances where the BGs have the guns, and they do not? A few examples in the last couple of years come to mind, but I'm sure you know the ones I mean...

What do unarmed folks ANYWHERE do when the shooting starts, and they are unarmed?

Why is the UK coming in for so much bad-mouthing from you guys, when numerous states of the Union advise their citizens to run and hide when threatened?

tac


I haven't thrown a rock at the UK at all, but I will now!

The UK is just as perverted and twisted in its moral perception of the rights of its citizenry as are many Blue US States.

How's that?

Fair and balanced!

Wink

Hang in there TAC, and if I am unarmed, I will be doing the R&H thing, too, cuz, well, I'm not bullet proof.

TAC:

Serious question, just for smiles and giggles.

Is it legal in the UK to purchase and wear body armor?

I bet that will be on the block here in the commie states in the not too distant future.


**********************
"For certainly no legislation can be supposed more wholesome and necessary in the founding of a free, self-governing commonwealth, fit to take rank as one of the coordinate States of the Union, than that which seeks to establish it on the basis of the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony"; United States Supreme Court Ruling, Murphy v. Ramsey 1885.
The hardest trail leads to the highest peak.
"A liberal is a person whose immediate interests are not at stake."
 
Posts: 4537 | Location: Idaho, USA | Registered: May 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
They're after my Lucky Charms!
Picture of IrishWind
posted Hide Post
Tac, not trying to pick a fight. Just pointing out how I see things. Yes, run and hide is a real strategy. My office is 'gun free', especially when we have rent a cops in the lobby protecting us. Roll Eyes My co-workers and I avoid the yearly force protection/active shooting briefs because we know we will get in deep trouble when we call them out for the complete stupid shit they publish we do if some bad guys do hit our building. But run and hide is the best we can hope for if we do get hit.

But when out on the street, I have the option to carry. I have a permit to carry, and use it. And many others in VA do too. Should ISIL attack where I am, I have the option to defend my family to get out of the bad situation.

Also, in my FaceBook news feed today, there was a story about Sharia patrols in East London where gangs were enforcing Sharia law in their neighborhoods. This coupled with the Run and Hide messages is hurting Her Majesties' rule since it is messaging to the Muslim invaders that you are ready to be over run.


Lord, your ocean is so very large and my divos are so very f****d-up
Dirt Sailors Unite!
 
Posts: 24084 | Location: NoVa | Registered: May 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 3/4Flap:Is it legal in the UK to purchase and wear body armor?


The only people here who wear body armour are the police and money delivery folks, AFAIK.

And no, Body armour is NOT on sale to the general public.

tac
 
Posts: 8073 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of EasyFire
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
the 17th C Bill of Rights that gave every man the right to have a firearm for his or her own protection or to protect his or her family, or household.


I always appreciate your insightful comments about these issues, tac.

Do you know of a link to a source with that original language or statement you reference?


Yes Tac is one of the most informed and eloquent posters on this forum. I find his information always informative and enlightening.
 
Posts: 739 | Location: Colorado | Registered: December 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 3/4Flap
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
quote:
Originally posted by 3/4Flap:Is it legal in the UK to purchase and wear body armor?


The only people here who wear body armour are the police and money delivery folks, AFAIK.

And no, Body armour is NOT on sale to the general public.

tac


Is it actually illegal?


**********************
"For certainly no legislation can be supposed more wholesome and necessary in the founding of a free, self-governing commonwealth, fit to take rank as one of the coordinate States of the Union, than that which seeks to establish it on the basis of the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony"; United States Supreme Court Ruling, Murphy v. Ramsey 1885.
The hardest trail leads to the highest peak.
"A liberal is a person whose immediate interests are not at stake."
 
Posts: 4537 | Location: Idaho, USA | Registered: May 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Unhyphenated American
Picture of Floyd D. Barber
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BurtonRW:
What if they come at you with a pointed stick?

Roll Eyes

-Rob


As long as it isn't a banana, or the dreaded loganberries.


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Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon

It's nice to be important, it's more important to be nice.
Billy Joe Shaver


NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 4949 | Location: Between the Moon and New York City. | Registered: November 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
quote:
Originally posted by Dirt:
I'm beginning to feel less and less sorry for those that cower before their enemies rather than confront them.


Armed with what, exactly?

Bare hands against people armed with fully automatic weapons?

That'll work.

tac


It can, if you have the will to try...

https://www.theguardian.com/wo...-crisis-do-something
 
Posts: 138 | Location: Bucks County, PA | Registered: December 24, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tusk:It can, if you have the will to try...

https://www.theguardian.com/wo...-crisis-do-something


Uh, right, Sir.

Let's see some context here, OK?

Quote - With a bloodshot eye, a cut on his head and his arm in a sling after surgery to reattach his thumb, Spencer Stone, a 6ft 2in off-duty airman and martial arts fan, looked fatigued but relieved to be alive as he slowly came to terms with his new surprise status of American hero. End quote.

What percentage of YOUR population is a husky 6ft 2in male serving-military and martial arts exponent? Who just happens to the on the scene right there when the SHTF?

Just interested to know, that's all.

tac
 
Posts: 8073 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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