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Do No Harm,
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Picture of chongosuerte
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I can say that officers in NC are being trained at the state level to NOT disarm law-abiding concealed handgun permittees.

If there are safety concerns, supported under Terry V. Ohio and subsequent rulings, then disarmament would be legal regardless of a permit.


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Posts: 8609 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by chongosuerte:
I can say that officers in NC are being trained at the state level to NOT disarm law-abiding concealed handgun permittees.

If there are safety concerns, supported under Terry V. Ohio and subsequent rulings, then disarmament would be legal regardless of a permit.


Good to hear. That is forward progress. Nothing scarier than someone unfamiliar with a firearm platform making a ham handed attempt to clear and secure it. And some of the methods I've heard of returning them after a stop are stupid.

I will say that my most recent interaction with a MI trooper on a traffic stop was very positive. Did the usual interior lights on, hands on the top of the wheel, window down. His first words to me were "CPL holder?". Yes Trooper and I'm required to inform you I'm carrying a firearm this evening. He asked me how long I had had a permit to which I replied "since 1984, pre Shall Issue". He seemed quite surprised, ran my license and sent me on my way.


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Posts: 10137 | Location: below the palm tree line of Michigan | Registered: September 17, 2004Report This Post
Don't Panic
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I was stopped (here in NC) for a traffic violation a while back, and told the deputy of my concealed carry permit and that I was carrying, as required. He asked where it was, and then asked if there'd be any problems. I said I couldn't imagine why, then we talked guns for a while.

If he'd asked for it, I'd have complied, though I'd have wanted to know how exactly he wanted the transfer handled. No purpose to raising the adrenaline level by fumbling with a loaded gun in front of a peace officer.

My concealed carry is for my protection. While I have an LEO right there, I don't need it - he/she is protection enough.
 
Posts: 10889 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: October 15, 2007Report This Post
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Picture of wrightd
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If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.




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Posts: 5546 | Registered: February 01, 2008Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.


Just out of curiosity, where do your facts come from on this statement?


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG


 
Posts: 29220 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.

This is beyond my comprehension...

In my County it is common for the Deputy to ask to see the gun. He will then clear it, and run the serial number to make sure it is not a stolen gun and then give it back.

I have not been stopped in over 40 years, but I have no problem with that.

I know a handful of the Deputies and they are all good guys. The County pays them well, with some approaching 150K/year and for that reason, they are very professional and well selected.

Some of the surrounding Counties pay far far less and get what they pay for...
 
Posts: 1097 | Registered: October 01, 2013Report This Post
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Picture of wrightd
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.


Just out of curiosity, where do your facts come from on this statement?


I do not have facts, but the opening OP question itself is based on a normal sense of apprehension and common sense. If you were pulled (being an officer yourself) by a nervous officer ordering you to withdraw your concealed gun and hand it to him or her, would any circumstance you could imagine not likely fall into one of the above three categories ? So if you're out of uniform, in another state or unknown jurisdiction, or better, imagine you're not LEO yourself as you are, under which category of officer interaction would you comfortably place that situation outside of the categories above ?




NRA Range Safety Officer, Distinguished Expert Shotgun Pistol
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Posts: 5546 | Registered: February 01, 2008Report This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.


Just out of curiosity, where do your facts come from on this statement?


I do not have facts, but the opening OP question itself is based on a normal sense of apprehension and common sense. If you were pulled (being an officer yourself) by a nervous officer ordering you to withdraw your concealed gun and hand it to him or her, would any circumstance you could imagine not likely fall into one of the above three categories ? So if you're out of uniform, in another state or unknown jurisdiction, or better, imagine you're not LEO yourself as you are, under which category of officer interaction would you comfortably place that situation outside of the categories above ?


So, your scenario is nothing based upon fact, just something you have spun up in your mind.

Fact of the matter I have been stopped and disarmed exactly twice in the last five years. A police officer disarming me in plain clothes. Once in Alabama, once in the People's Republic of Illinois (downstate IL at that). What did not happen to me was that the officer wasn't "primed to blow me away", nor was he planning on "killing me outright".

In both instances, the officers asked me to step out of the car, and had me stand while they took my pistol out of the holster. In both instances, they ran my pistol, and issued me a warning. (One is a long story based upon a lady at a traffic light who refused to turn for several cycles when the arrow turned green due to her involvement in FB, and the other was speeding 37 in a 35). In Illinois I identified myself as being a police officer in a nearby jurisdiction, and in Alabama I did not ID myself as an off duty officer, I just presented the officer with my CCDW.

In both cases, I feel the officers reactions were just as ill informed as the scenario in your post. But, I don't treat gun owners like the small percentage that have shot at me. I don't know if a gun owner is going to murder me, or is going to be mentally ill, etc, but I don't treat all gun owners as if out of ignorant fear. It is the same fear that you see all of the hype about "assault weapons" from the left. None of it is based upon fact, but their fear seems to be real to them that they will be murdered by someone with an "assault weapon" because they don't know who they are interacting with, they don't know if they intend on murdering them, or if they are mentally ill. The train of thought makes zero sense to me. Either stereotypes fit all groups equally, or they don't.

But that is just me, I guess. There are some dumbass cops, no doubt. But, the logic of those who worry about this kind of stuff on both sides is just as silly as those on the left who pine about those evil assault weapons and how they need to be banned to provide them safety. Even though their chance of being killed by an assault weapon is so insignificant. Boggles the mind.

Just food for thought, and I don't mean anything horrible by it.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG


 
Posts: 29220 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Report This Post
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Picture of wrightd
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.


Just out of curiosity, where do your facts come from on this statement?


I do not have facts, but the opening OP question itself is based on a normal sense of apprehension and common sense. If you were pulled (being an officer yourself) by a nervous officer ordering you to withdraw your concealed gun and hand it to him or her, would any circumstance you could imagine not likely fall into one of the above three categories ? So if you're out of uniform, in another state or unknown jurisdiction, or better, imagine you're not LEO yourself as you are, under which category of officer interaction would you comfortably place that situation outside of the categories above ?


So, your scenario is nothing based upon fact, just something you have spun up in your mind.

Fact of the matter I have been stopped and disarmed exactly twice in the last five years. A police officer disarming me in plain clothes. Once in Alabama, once in the People's Republic of Illinois (downstate IL at that). What did not happen to me was that the officer wasn't "primed to blow me away", nor was he planning on "killing me outright".

In both instances, the officers asked me to step out of the car, and had me stand while they took my pistol out of the holster. In both instances, they ran my pistol, and issued me a warning. (One is a long story based upon a lady at a traffic light who refused to turn for several cycles when the arrow turned green due to her involvement in FB, and the other was speeding 37 in a 35). In Illinois I identified myself as being a police officer in a nearby jurisdiction, and in Alabama I did not ID myself as an off duty officer, I just presented the officer with my CCDW.

In both cases, I feel the officers reactions were just as ill informed as the scenario in your post. But, I don't treat gun owners like the small percentage that have shot at me. I don't know if a gun owner is going to murder me, or is going to be mentally ill, etc, but I don't treat all gun owners as if out of ignorant fear. It is the same fear that you see all of the hype about "assault weapons" from the left. None of it is based upon fact, but their fear seems to be real to them that they will be murdered by someone with an "assault weapon" because they don't know who they are interacting with, they don't know if they intend on murdering them, or if they are mentally ill. The train of thought makes zero sense to me. Either stereotypes fit all groups equally, or they don't.

But that is just me, I guess. There are some dumbass cops, no doubt. But, the logic of those who worry about this kind of stuff on both sides is just as silly as those on the left who pine about those evil assault weapons and how they need to be banned to provide them safety. Even though their chance of being killed by an assault weapon is so insignificant. Boggles the mind.

Just food for thought, and I don't mean anything horrible by it.

The situation you just described is perfectly normal and I do not have any issues with it. But that is not situation I described above. You described a factual real-life normal situation between an officer and a legally armed citizen that you personally experienced twice, which is nothing like the situation I described above. Let's say your two actual experiences were the same that you just described, except, 1) the officer asks you to remove the gun yourself from concealment and hand it to him yourself, without him having you step out of the car, hands on the hood, officer withdraws your gun himself, etc., and 2) he appears to be nervous and/or agitated with his strong hand on his gun (normal for dicey situations I assume for officers - state troopers sometimes do that in my state - even for a minor speeding violation - strong hand resting on grip while they're checking you out during the conversation). So, under those circumstances, are you still comfortable and cool with that situation as you are in the more normal situation you experienced twice ?

BTW, your point about worrying about this kind of stuff, comparing it to the left wingers who worry about ar15's, etc. is well taken, you win on that point and I concede to it. I guess if you respond, it will need to be from a point of view that is unlikely, improbable, but still possible. Bad cops have done worse things, and you have to concede to that, as I think you already have.




NRA Range Safety Officer, Distinguished Expert Shotgun Pistol
Lover of the US Constitution
Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing
2 Guns short of never having enough
 
Posts: 5546 | Registered: February 01, 2008Report This Post
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The situation you just described is perfectly normal and I do not have any issues with it. But that is not situation I described above. You described a factual real-life normal situation between an officer and a legally armed citizen that you personally experienced twice, which is nothing like the situation I described above. Let's say your two actual experiences were the same that you just described, except, 1) the officer asks you to remove the gun yourself from concealment and hand it to him yourself, without him having you step out of the car, hands on the hood, officer withdraws your gun himself, etc., and 2) he appears to be nervous and/or agitated with his strong hand on his gun (normal for dicey situations I assume for officers - state troopers sometimes do that in my state - even for a minor speeding violation - strong hand resting on grip while they're checking you out during the conversation). So, under those circumstances, are you still comfortable and cool with that situation as you are in the more normal situation you experienced twice ?



Direct answer to your question- Yes, absolutely. I do not judge them for their lack of cool, no more than I judge you for owning an AR. Neither are indicators of foul play, or criminal activity being afoot.

I'm not perfect, and I can and will screw things up. But, I always try and operate off of the fact that everyone is different.

Thank you for hearing me out.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG


 
Posts: 29220 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Report This Post
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Picture of wrightd
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
The situation you just described is perfectly normal and I do not have any issues with it. But that is not situation I described above. You described a factual real-life normal situation between an officer and a legally armed citizen that you personally experienced twice, which is nothing like the situation I described above. Let's say your two actual experiences were the same that you just described, except, 1) the officer asks you to remove the gun yourself from concealment and hand it to him yourself, without him having you step out of the car, hands on the hood, officer withdraws your gun himself, etc., and 2) he appears to be nervous and/or agitated with his strong hand on his gun (normal for dicey situations I assume for officers - state troopers sometimes do that in my state - even for a minor speeding violation - strong hand resting on grip while they're checking you out during the conversation). So, under those circumstances, are you still comfortable and cool with that situation as you are in the more normal situation you experienced twice ?



Direct answer to your question- Yes, absolutely. I do not judge them for their lack of cool, no more than I judge you for owning an AR. Neither are indicators of foul play, or criminal activity being afoot.

I'm not perfect, and I can and will screw things up. But, I always try and operate off of the fact that everyone is different.

Thank you for hearing me out.

Great points and I cannot counterpoint them, those are character traits we should all respect. More LEOs and good citizens should think like that during interactions. My thanks to you as well for hearing me out. Whether we had agreed or not that by itself is refreshing. God bless you in the street and at home.




NRA Range Safety Officer, Distinguished Expert Shotgun Pistol
Lover of the US Constitution
Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing
2 Guns short of never having enough
 
Posts: 5546 | Registered: February 01, 2008Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by David W:
I was pulled for speeding a couple years ago. I informed him per NC laws and he asked to have my weapon. My wife was in the passenger seat and he was on her side so I was very careful to not point the weapon towards her when handing it to him. (this is why I think its dumb idea to ask a legal CCW holder for their weapon) What is the first thing he does? Points the gun directly at her and walks away.

When he came back on my side of the car I told him what he had done he did not seem to care. So I ask him politely what is the law about me giving him my weapon. He went straight on the defensive saying if I ask for your weapon you better give it to me. I said politely, I never said I would not give you my weapon I just wanted clarification on the law. He was pissed I was asking questions tossed my weapon in the back floor board and said is there anything else?

We called and spoke to the SGT on duty. He was very nice and said he was sorry the Trooper was rude and wanted to know if we wanted to file formal charges. We said no, he said he would personally have a talk with the Trooper and remind him that he is lucky folks like us have our CCW. And also to remind him their were plenty of other people that would want his job.

I never minded him asking for my weapon my problem was him swiping my wife, not caring about doing it and his attitude when I asked simple questions that should get simple answers.

I know this is an old post, but I have to ask: Did you tell the Sergeant that the trooper pointed a firearm at your wife? Seems to me that the trooper needs correction through his supervisory chain or Internal Affairs. NCHP is a highly regarded agency and I would hope that they have proper methods to correct officer behavior such as this.
It is totally inexcusable to point a firearm at anyone unless you are justified in doing so. Sweeping someone with a firearm in this circumstance is a negligent act, in my opinion.
 
Posts: 327 | Location: Capital of the Confederacy | Registered: January 24, 2014Report This Post
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Picture of David W
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quote:
Originally posted by KBP:
i would just comply with the Officers request. He is the law and if he does something against the law, it can be dealt with later. Why put yourself in defiance of an officers request? He does represent the law and its a stretch to think this will ever happen unless you commit a crime.


We are talking about people who have committed nothing more than speeding. Just because he is the "law" doesn't make him right.Handing a loaded gun to anyone is dangerous and I think its poor practice for any LEO asking to do so.


David W.

Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud. -Sophocles
 
Posts: 2445 | Location: Winston-Salem, N.C. | Registered: May 30, 2005Report This Post
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Picture of chansen92
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
If a nervous officer asks you to hand your gun to him or her, they are already primed to blow you away. In that scenario the officer is either really, really stupid, mentally ill, or is planning on killing you outright. That would be a very difficult situation - should you hand him your gun and get murdered on the spot with the officer claiming you were trying to shoot him, request a second officer with the hope that the one standing in front of you doesn't drag you out of the car and send you to the hospital or jail. I guess the best to hope for would be that he's just plain old stupid, and he doesn't accidentally shoot himself or you.


Just out of curiosity, where do your facts come from on this statement?
Your paranoia is way over the top and quite frankly I'm thinking that you are more of a threat to the officer than he is to you. I have dealt with the police on a number of occasion and have never met one that did not treat me respectfully. Maybe I just did not come across as a nut job to them. I also question your qualifications as an NRA certified instructor with your attitude about the police. Please do not voice your opinion on what to say and do during a traffic stop if a student should ask.
 
Posts: 1521 | Location: owosso,Mi. USA | Registered: August 18, 2002Report This Post
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